Valkorion Gauntlet

yes, and so does every character in legends. TPM mace windu was close to yoda at first,

No, he was second to Yoda. Second to =/= close to.

but later we learn that he is below jedi dooku,

Actually, he's ~ Jedi Dooku.

who is far weaker than sith dooku, who is about 3 times weaker than yoda.

Not sure where you got this statistic from.

or about every comparison between sheev and vader- vader is either his biggest threat whom he needed to sabotage and who could him if he wasnt careful, alllll the way to sheev being capable of stomping him by blinking.

:eh: 


Vader was capable of killing an unprepared Sidious, yes. Few beings in SW could accomplish this. He's still solidly below Sidious. There's no fluctuation here. 

Im just trying to rank the character according to how the source in question portrays him- far weaker than her, and geth ~ ROTJ sheev.A

Geth isn't ~ ROTJ Sheev. ROTS Sheev thought Ventress was a threat despite her being ragdoll tier to Dooku.

oh god, imma have to talk about this again sigh never mind man. if u think that geth is fodder, thats fine.

@BoD There's a Lucas quote saying that Vader needed "super energies" to beat Sidious. IE it's something out of his reach at his normal thing. He charged for minutes on end too. The evidence is in Post 2 of my SS with EC and/or SF3.

wasnt that after he became anakin (aka lost whatever dark side amp he previously had) and after he broke his legs and lost an arm, while he was 'weaker than ever' or something? and why is super energies something he cant use outside of that instance? is it not his own power?

IG (Exists) wrote:@BoD There's a Lucas quote saying that Vader needed "super energies" to beat Sidious. IE it's something out of his reach at his normal thing. He charged for minutes on end too. The evidence is in Post 2 of my SS with EC and/or SF3.

In a quote from the ROTJ novel he was said to be completely powerless and gathering his strength.

BoD wrote:

IG (Exists) wrote:@BoD There's a Lucas quote saying that Vader needed "super energies" to beat Sidious. IE it's something out of his reach at his normal thing. He charged for minutes on end too. The evidence is in Post 2 of my SS with EC and/or SF3.

In a quote from the ROTJ novel he was said to be completely powerless and gathering his strength.

G-Canon contradicts it though.

It doesn't, actually. He needed an amp to kill Sheev, yes. Doesn't say how quantifiable that amp was.

it says that he was stronger than before, which was his 'fucked up' self, so it doenst even mean that amped vader > healthy vader either lol

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:it says that he was stronger than before, which was his 'fucked up' self, so it doenst even mean that amped vader > healthy vader either lol

"Super-energies"

BoD wrote:It doesn't, actually. He needed an amp to kill Sheev, yes. Doesn't say how quantifiable that amp was.

It says that Vader normally could never kill Palpatine via the way he did, but the amp allowed him to.

FYI, expect a response on the Revan stuff tonight.

It says that Vader normally could never kill Palpatine via the way he did, but the amp allowed him to.

Hence why I said the extent of the amp is unquantifiable.

FYI, expect a response on the Revan stuff tonight. 

You have very poor timing. This is probably going to be my last post for a while while I sort out some irl stuff over the next few weeks.

Good gauntlet, stops at Ventress.

Hence why I said the extent of the amp is unquantifiable.

You were insinuating Vader's weakened state may have mitigated the amp. The quote acknowledges Vader's pre-amp weakened state, then says even at his strongest he "wouldn't have stood a chance" at doing this. Clearly the amp was immense and him being weakened beforehand is irrelevant to its potency.

You were insinuating Vader's weakened state may have mitigated the amp. The quote acknowledges Vader's pre-amp weakened state, then says even at his strongest he wouldn't have a chance of doing this.

No, I'm suggesting that the amp itself is impossible to gauge as it would have restored Vader's strength and added to it. It could have added a small to moderate boost to his power, or it could have multiplied it.

BoD wrote:

You were insinuating Vader's weakened state may have mitigated the amp. The quote acknowledges Vader's pre-amp weakened state, then says even at his strongest he wouldn't have a chance of doing this.

No, I'm suggesting that the amp itself is impossible to gauge as it would have restored Vader's strength and added to it. It could have added a small to moderate boost to his power, or it could have multiplied it.

You just re-said what I said then attached "no" in front of it.

Why the fierfek is this karking censorship still on you Mace Windu

I'm saying that Vader was amped beyond his normal levels, that's undeniable. What I'm also saying is that he was exhausted beforehand, so part of that amp would have restored his strength and then boosted it on top of it. It's not possible to quantify how much this augmented his strength considering that it simultaneously fully restored his power and amped him. There's no way to measure the extent of the amp beyond Vader's level, nor is there a way to determine how close Vader is to Sidious based on that showing other than it turning Vader from a confirmed inferior to Sheev (by a vague gap) to a being capable of killing him. Hence, unquantifiable.

Really not sure what your argument is here. Are you arguing that the amp is specifically quantifiable?

Isv wrote:Why the fierfek is this karking censorship still on you Mace Windu

...Mace Windu?

ive only seen one thing that says that vader was legitimately amped, and none of them seem to say that its one a time thing. the one that i can think is sidious saying that vader had the power to kill him (doenst mean vader=sheev), but that only lasted for so long. this could mean that vader did in fact achieve powers above his average self, OR it could mean that, you know, vader DIED after the deed, which would limit his ability to keep it up, logically. REGARDLESS, amp or not, Vader was indeed injured and weakened and didnt defend himself at all from the attack. I dont know what the amp actually did, but it let him fully tank an attack that he was naturally weak, with only 1 arm, and a broken leg AFTER he lost his dark side boost, as he had become anakin by this point. The amp had to cover so many things, and its mustve been so powerful for this to happen, that if were to achieve 1/3 third of this 'circumstantial' amp when he was a dark sider and healthy, he could likely replicate the feat again. i dont know why u people think he cant do it again. him being mad at sheev is a constant state of being for vader. he can at least pull off something similar WITHOUT luke being tortured. he has enough bad memories and feelings for that.

BoD wrote:I'm saying that Vader was amped beyond his normal levels, that's undeniable. What I'm also saying is that he was exhausted beforehand, so part of that amp would have restored his strength and then boosted it on top of it. It's not possible to quantify how much this augmented his strength considering that it simultaneously fully restored his power and amped him. There's no way to measure the extent of the amp beyond Vader's level, nor is there a way to determine how close Vader is to Sidious based on that showing other than it turning Vader from a confirmed inferior to Sheev (by a vague gap) to a being capable of killing him. Hence, unquantifiable.

Really not sure what your argument is here. Are you arguing that the amp is specifically quantifiable?

No one is trying to quantify it. They're saying it's not applicable to base Suited Vader.

If Vader does something previously deemed by him/sources as nigh-impossible or beyond his level by a large amount, and there's sources that state it's an actual amp - super energy even - then the consensus would be that it was beyond his reach in base levels.

Especially if the alternate view makes him take a huge amount of energy from a lunatic Sheev for an extended period of time with no barrier. What is the argument there exactly; that he was equal, slightly below, above? A ways below but he just walks through a huge storm with no tutaminis? Kind of curious how far the implications go.

BoD wrote:I'm saying that Vader was amped beyond his normal levels, that's undeniable. What I'm also saying is that he was exhausted beforehand, so part of that amp would have restored his strength and then boosted it on top of it. It's not possible to quantify how much this augmented his strength considering that it simultaneously fully restored his power and amped him. There's no way to measure the extent of the amp beyond Vader's level, nor is there a way to determine how close Vader is to Sidious based on that showing other than it turning Vader from a confirmed inferior to Sheev (by a vague gap) to a being capable of killing him. Hence, unquantifiable.

Right. That's what I said. Here's the issue:

- You acknowledge the amp unequivocally boosts Vader beyond his peak suit self. 
- Your complaint is that the extent the amp boosts Vader beyond his peak suit self is unknown.

Because, by default, the amp boosts Vader beyond his peak suit self, any consideration about his state when he received the amp is irrelevant. Bringing up that Vader was in an "exhausted" condition beforehand is basically the same as you saying, "The extent the amp boosts Vader beyond his peak suit self is unknown, but because he's 'exhausted' beforehand the value of that unknown extent is less than whatever you are thinking in your mind!" It's a subtle attempt to unfairly knock the amp down a peg.

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:ive only seen one thing that says that vader was legitimately amped, and none of them seem to say that its one a time thing. the one that i can think is sidious saying that vader had the power to kill him (doenst mean vader=sheev), but that only lasted for so long. this could mean that vader did in fact achieve powers above his average self, OR it could mean that, you know, vader DIED after the deed, which would limit his ability to keep it up, logically. REGARDLESS, amp or not, Vader was indeed injured and weakened and didnt defend himself at all from the attack. I dont know what the amp actually did, but it let him fully tank an attack that he was naturally weak, with only 1 arm, and a broken leg AFTER he lost his dark side boost, as he had become anakin by this point. The amp had to cover so many things, and its mustve been so powerful for this to happen, that if were to achieve 1/3 third of this 'circumstantial' amp when he was a dark sider and healthy, he could likely replicate the feat again. i dont know why u people think he cant do it again. him being mad at sheev is a constant state of being for vader. he can at least pull off something similar WITHOUT luke being tortured. he has enough bad memories and feelings for that.

Peak Vader "couldn't have stood a chance" at replicating this normally, per the quote. Vader's coursing with light side energy and love for Luke, which is circumstantial.

Right. That's what I said. Here's the issue:

- You acknowledge the amp unequivocally boosts Vader beyond his peak suit self. 
- Your complaint is that the extent the amp boosts Vader beyond his peak suit self is unknown.

Because, by default, the amp boosts Vader beyond his peak suit self, any consideration about his state when he received the amp is irrelevant. Bringing up that Vader was in an "exhausted" condition beforehand is basically the same as you saying, "The extent the amp boosts Vader beyond his peak suit self is unknown, but because he's 'exhausted' beforehand the value of that unknown extent is less than whatever you are currently thinking!" It's a subtle attempt to unfairly knock down the amp a peg.

Not what I was trying to do. I was trying to say that it can't be treated as this insane boost that for example quadrupled his strength as some members put it as he was completely powerless before it occurred, nor can it be used as a measurement of Vader's base power because it was, well, an amp that put him at a higher power level than even his peak suit level.

Not what I was trying to do.

Well, it was, and you said as much in your next line:  

 I was trying to say that it can't be treated as this insane boost that for example quadrupled his strength as some members put it as he was completely powerless before it occurred

Exactly, but that doesn't work. Why does him being powerless beforehand preclude an uber amp? (Hint: It can't.)

DarthAnt66 wrote:

BoD wrote:I'm saying that Vader was amped beyond his normal levels, that's undeniable. What I'm also saying is that he was exhausted beforehand, so part of that amp would have restored his strength and then boosted it on top of it. It's not possible to quantify how much this augmented his strength considering that it simultaneously fully restored his power and amped him. There's no way to measure the extent of the amp beyond Vader's level, nor is there a way to determine how close Vader is to Sidious based on that showing other than it turning Vader from a confirmed inferior to Sheev (by a vague gap) to a being capable of killing him. Hence, unquantifiable.

Right. That's what I said. Here's the issue:

- You acknowledge the amp unequivocally boosts Vader beyond his peak suit self. 
- Your complaint is that the extent the amp boosts Vader beyond his peak suit self is unknown.

Because, by default, the amp boosts Vader beyond his peak suit self, any consideration about his state when he received the amp is irrelevant. Bringing up that Vader was in an "exhausted" condition beforehand is basically the same as you saying, "The extent the amp boosts Vader beyond his peak suit self is unknown, but because he's 'exhausted' beforehand the value of the unknown extent is less than whatever you're currently thinking!" It's a subtle attempt to unfairly knock down the amp a peg.

Thats...not what i said, exactly?

I questioned the existence of said amp, but continued to talk about it as to not create a longer and bigger discussion. I also didnt complain about the size of the boost. I said that if the boost is that huge (as it technically would be), him achieving even part of that boost while he is not in such a 'disadvantaged' state, which i assume he could do and briefly mentioned why, should allow him to replicate the same feat. I will of course assume that u think this is not possible, which i can understand of course. Its not like i can say with 100% certainty that there is no such boost. Vader's supposed boost comes from his mind, so him achieving a similar state of mind should give him a similar boost, but just not as big. I believe that there is a quote that says that said boost is non achievable, but that is not actually necessary here, since we know that his much weaker self could still achieve that level of power. Him with a lesser boost, but in a much more healthy state could possibly replicate the feat. U understand what im trying to say here? 

I would like to see quotes for this amp, if u could please provide them?