Darth Malgus vs Starkiller

morals on


All out


Provide a reason

Backing Malgus. Comparably powerful enough to hold his own and should be more skilled.

Deleting comments with no reasons

backing malgus i believe he could hold his own against this type of opponent especially if we take into account malgus reborn from the new expansion tbh

SK has better feats in every area.

i can see both, in prime and all that, but im leaning SK. He does fight the better fighter imo, and the more 'accomplished force user' in Vader. I can also see Sk having some superior powers, considering the fact that he had like, almost 2 decades of training, from one the most learned sith ever, who gave him one of the most.. tough, long, and arduous training regimens we know of. only maul might surpass him in that. maybe.

Pre-prime Malgus scales massively above a Jedi who could collapse buildings and has matched the four act 3 protagonists (one of whom can be argued to be around Revan Reborn level) at once in sabers and the Force and performed incredibly well. In his prime, he's broken the Outlander's passive Force barrier, tanked a fall from one of the tallest structures on Corellia, essentially ragdolled Tau and Arn, and ripped a huge generator free of its hinges and tossed it downwards. He's also choked and killed Dark Council members from across the galaxy. 

SK has matched TFU 1/2 Vader twice (the second he was being outmatched in) and is his peer in the Force, having broken his passive Force barrier in a similar way to Malgus and the Outlander (caught him when he was distracted/unprepared). He's also mused that he can topple a junk temple with the Force, exploded a fragment of a heavily damaged frigate, ragdolled a heavily injured and unprepared Vader, and is able to stomp Council members like Shaak Ti. He was also considered a worthy replacement for Vader by Sidious.

It's close, but Malgus should take it by virtue of better skill showings.

u didnt finish the SK part, but ok lol i think SK= malgus in dueling skill, but like i said, i do think it to be pretty even, but leaning towards for SK as far as pure power goes.

i hate it when people say shit like that. feats are nothing when scaling exists. Malgus has feats of taking on an airstrike or bombing i believe, way before his prime.

Backing SK. Way superior Force Wielder and his saber skills impress me more than Malgus'.

BoD wrote:Pre-prime Malgus scales massively above a Jedi who could collapse buildings

It's questionable whether the Jedi that Malgus defeated even collapsed a building with the Force.

"The Zabrak was merely the focus of his anger, a convenient target for his rage. Malgus fell into the Force, roared, and bounded down the street, his anger lending him speed. The Jedi held his ground. At twenty meters, the Jedi raised his lightsabers aloft to either side and drew them both down with a flourish. Too late the rumble of the falling buildings penetrated the haze of Malgus's anger. An avalanche of duracrete and transparisteel crashed down on him from either side of the street..." - The Third Lesson.

The text never clarifies whether the Zabrak uses telekinesis to bring the buildings down or destroys key supports of the buildings with a swing of his lightsaber blades, bring them down. 

It should be noted is that Malgus is notably enraged as a result of his defeat by Satele and that he has chosen this particular Jedi as the target of his rage as the text which I provided above states.

in the end, the manner in which he defeats him is by using a storm of Force lightning to overcome him.

"At 10 meters, Malgus extended his free hand and loosed veins of blue Force lightning. They struck the charging Jedi: swept through his defenses, swirled around him, and began to burn flesh. 

-

Malgus ended his attack. The Jedi, ruined, fell to the ground and rolled over onto his back. His breathing sounded worse than Malgus's." - The Third Lesson. 

This is relevant considering Force Lightning is noted to be an ability that is especially hard to defend against with even the most powerful of masters having trouble deflecting bursts let alone a sustained barrage like Malgus's own. 

"Called Sith lightning, these charges cause excruciating pain and weaken life, and it is a challenge for even the most powerful of Jedi Masters to deflect such bursts." - Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide. 

Considering this, I don't know how accurate it is to say that Malgus scales massively above this Jedi because he unleashed an ability that is uniquely difficult to defend against while enraged. 

BoD wrote:and has matched the four act 3 protagonists

Can I ask you where it's confirmed that Malgus canonically faced 4 act 3 protagonists as opposed to 1 of them as you are also able to do within the game? As far as I'm aware, no one path has been confirmed to be canonical and considering other flashpoints within the game actively prevent you from fighting a boss by yourself ( the SOR flashpoint being a prime example ) I feel that's strong evidence suggesting that if the intended canonical event was to be a fight between Malgus and the 4 protags, they would not allow players to face him alone, as they are currently able to. 

BoD wrote:(one of whom can be argued to be around Revan Reborn level)

Which of those protags would you argue is on the level of Revan Reborn as of Act 4? I'd be interested in hearing your argument for any of the protagonists being on his level by that point. 

BoD wrote:In his prime, he's broken the Outlander's passive Force barrier, tanked a fall from one of the tallest structures on Corellia, essentially ragdolled Tau and Arn, and ripped a huge generator free of its hinges and tossed it downwards. He's also choked and killed Dark Council members from across the galaxy. 

SK has matched TFU 1/2 Vader twice (the second he was being outmatched in)  

Galen outright overcame Vader in their first fight and Starkiller was notably exhausted in their second fight in TFUII. Many have tried to argue that this wasn't a factor in the fight since the text itself doesn't go out of its way to emphasize his hindrance after initially stating that he was exhausted, but I'm curious as to why that would be relevant. While there are example of fights where the author chooses to point out and emphasize the hindrance of a character, there are a far larger number of examples where, outside of mentioning the factor as existing, they do not describe its impact on the fight. 

A great example of this is a character like Bane logically being amped by Darkside Force nexuses but the text simply not mentioning it as a factor. 

"Those connected to the light side of the Force find their powers diminished in these places, while those who wield the dark side are amazed at the strength that they gain, even as that energy overwhelms them." - The Jedi Training Academy Manual. 

"The soldier is correct. The dark side is strong here... and it will grant its strength to the Sith." - Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords.

"I can sense the power from this place. It's like the light abandoned it long ago. I fear the Sith shall be very strong here." - Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords.

"The Naddists were aided immeasurably by the mystical up welling of dark-side power of Freedon Nadd still prevalent throughout Onderon." - Star Wars Insider 27. 

"The second was that they were being reinforced by the emanations of the dark-side nexus within the temple. It surged forth like the psychic sewage, clogging the Jedi's reflexes as it fueled their enemies." - Fate of the Jedi: Ascension. 

Based on the aforementioned quotes, it is a consistent mechanic that within the Star Wars universe Force nexuses empower a character of the same alignment and weaken characters of a different alignment. 

The Bane novels themselves acknowledge this mechanic: 

"The malevolent power emanating from the stronghold kept the deadly streams at bay, but any landing site he chose on the ground would be at risk."

-

"Again she opened herself up to the dark side. This time, however, she didn't attack Bane directly. Instead, she let it flow through her, drawing it from the soil and stone of Ambria itself. She called to power buried for centuries, summoning it up to the surface in wispy tendrils of dark smoke snaking up from the sand."

Despite this, the Bane novels never go out of their way to mention that Bane is empowered on any other nexus. Not even locations like Dxun which is noted to be one of the most powerful Darkside nexuses in the galaxy. 

"Not every dark side site is equal, and each is rated as a minor site, major site, or extreme site. Minors sites include the tomb of an ancient Sith Lord or the lair of a particularly powerful Sith creature. Major sites include the Valley of the Dark Lords on Korriban on the Cave on Dagobah. Extreme sites are very rare and reserved for the most horrible of places such as the demon moon of Dxun or battlefields where thousands of innocents were slaughtered or the blood of untold Sith and Jedi mingled." - The Jedi Academy Training Manual. 

So are we to assume that this is some sort of inconsistency or that the author simply didn't feel the need to mention it as a factor after making it clear that the area was a place that was indeed steeped in Darkside energy? I think that most people who are debating these things in good faith would agree that the former interpretation is rather unreasonable, especially when we know the author has acknowledged such factors as being relevant in other works. 

The last part of the above statement is particularly relevant in this comparison considering the author of both the TFUI and TFUII novelizations, Sean Williams, has written the concept of using too much Force energy and exhausting yourself as being something to be avoided when going into a fight, having Galen muse that it would be wise for him to save his energy on his way to Shaak Ti as he battles the Felucians.

"He dispatched them calmly and without fuss, saving his energy for the real enemy waiting for him." - The Force Unleashed. 

Another great example is Qui Gon Jinn's respective fights with Maul in TPM.

In their first fight, a description goes out of its way to emphasize how exhausted Jinn was after his brief fight with Maul on Tatooine whilst in the second none make note of Jinn's exhaustion despite the second fight lasting far more than 30 seconds. So what should we conclude from this? That Qui Gon's flagging stamina wasn't a factor in his defeat once he was separated from his apprentice simply because it wasn't overtly mentioned? I think that such a stance would be rather nonsensical myself. 

There are a myriad of other examples like this throughout the mythos from Maul's injuries on Tatooine being noted by Maul himself to slow him down while the actual third person description in the fight doesn't mention them at all to Luke noting that he would need time to recover his energies prior to fighting a group of Sith but his actual exhaustion not being mentioned as a hindrance in the text. 

BoD wrote:and is his peer in the Force, having broken his passive Force barrier in a similar way to Malgus and the Outlander (caught him when he was distracted/unprepared).

I take multiple issues with this statement. 

1. You attempt to make the claim that because Malgus landed a Force push on a distracted Outlander means that they are peers. This is despite inferior Force users landing Force pushes on superior Force users all the time within Star Wars. 











2. You put forward the assertion that Malgus's feat against the Outlander is equivalent to Galen's feat against Vader. They aren't. 

Malgus's feat: 



Galen's feat: 

Vader prepared for combat again. His power over the apprentice, however, was gone. His lightsaber went skittering and sparking across the floor, twisted out of his grip by telekinesis. The Force wrenched him into the air, as he had once lifted the apprentice's father, and a barrage of missiles struck at him with increasing strength. He raised his gloved hands to defend himself, but the battery continued."

This is the manner in which Vader lifted Galen's father into the air: 



3. You claim that he caught Vader when he was unprepared/distracted when the text describing the scene outright contradicts this stating that Vader had prepared for combat again prior to Galen dominating him with the Force. 

BoD wrote:He's also mused that he can topple a junk temple with the Force, exploded a fragment of a heavily damaged frigate, ragdolled a heavily injured and unprepared Vader, and is able to stomp Council members like Shaak Ti. He was also considered a worthy replacement for Vader by Sidious, and 

It's close, but Malgus should take it by virtue of better skill showings.

1. The junk temple you referenced is stated to be a life-size replica of the Jedi temple made out of heavily durable materials such as tank armor:



2. The "fragment" you're mentioning is stated to be the upper half of a 550 meter ship: 







The upper half is depicted as possessing far more mass then the back half in all depictions of the ship we have: 



 
 

3A. Non physically limiting injuries are usually shown to actually amp Sith Lords and even injuries of the former kind are usually mitigated by the anger/rage amps Darksiders tend to receive from them. 

3B. I provided a quote above that explicitly states that Vader was prepared. Please try reading the source material you're talking about next time. 

4. What better skill showings does Malgus possess?

after reading this debunk galen owns his ass

Just to clarify, all of the above was just a debunk of BoD's claims. I didn't even get into the fact that the majority of the feats mentioned by BoD come from Galen Marek at the start of TFU prior to multiple power growths when Vader was still solidly above him and that he actively avoided mentioning Galen's actual best feats. 

What it really comes down to is this, does landing a Force push on a surprised Outlander and ( if we're being generous ) possessing building level TK prior to your prime equate to bringing down orbital superstructures that stretch above the Kashyyyk atmosphere, telekinetically affecting million ton machines and creating kilometer wide explosions capable of turning most of a 300 meter hunk of durasteel into ash? I'll let you be the judge and leave it at that.

i mean, i could mention the fact that no one character has more building lvl feats than vader just by 19 BBY? the vader galen faced, even if there were circumstances to both sides, is still faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar above 19 BBY Vader

Lightning, speed and building debunks for Malgus are all in this thread

Once again, SK atomizes

2. The "fragment" you're mentioning is stated to be the upper half of a 550 meter ship: 


Enlarge this imageClick to see fullsize

Ummmm that's a Nebulon C from TLJ just FYI. B is smaller.

Greysentinel365 wrote:
Ummmm that's a Nebulon C from TLJ just FYI. B is smaller.

Ah, my bad. I had misread a section of that quote.

Dayum Syndicate, it is good to see you are arguing.

malgus reborn wins, new expansion is pretty tight

@Syndicate Will reply in a bit, got an article on Iran vs America to write.

BoD wrote:@Syndicate Will reply in a bit, got an article on Iran vs America to write.

Would love to read your article. Send me if it's OK for you.

Will do when it's done.

BoD wrote:@Syndicate Will reply in a bit, got an article on Iran vs America to write.

Did you plan on responding to the Darth Krayt/Caedus thread as well?

Starkiller has better environmental feats, better scaling, better combative achievements, better accolades, you name it. Malgus is completely out of his depth here. He gets kicked to the curb so hard that he contemplates his complete ineptude for the eternity he spends in hell.

It is always good to see an old school debater taking the new school to task.