The Outlander vs Darth Krayt

January 2nd 2020, 5:18 am

Morals on

-Pls provide a reason.

January 2nd 2020, 6:11 am

Outlander in a great fight, I think. He's powerful enough to hold his own and he's more skilled. The Outlander is in a grey area right now so it's hard to judge, since he's carried on growing since KOTET.

January 2nd 2020, 10:53 am

Deleting posts with no reasons

January 2nd 2020, 11:34 am

Krayt is basically a stomp gap above Kenobi, who's superior to the same iteration of Vader that stalemated Starkiller in sabers and proved superior in the force. Consider Starkiller's own environmental feats and saber feats/accolades, I see no reason why The Outlander should beat him. Krayt wins without much difficulty tbh.

January 2nd 2020, 11:56 am

Krayt is basically a stomp gap above Kenobi

Being above someone in the Force doesn't mean you can stomp them in sabers, especially when they outmatched you when they'd had enough of trying to end the fight without bloodshed and while you had the terrain advantage.

who's superior to the same iteration of Vader

Based on?

that stalemated Starkiller in sabers

He didn't stalemate SK. Twice in the fight he had the upper hand, with the first case having him poised to strike SK down and the second which had him drive SK back and nearly cause him to fall off the platform's upper ledge.

and proved superior in the force.

How is Kenobi > TFU 2 Vader in the Force?

Consider Starkiller's own environmental feats and saber feats/accolades,

Environmental feats that unchained Vaylin walks over, and who the Outlander is above in power arguably as early as the end of KOTET.

I see no reason why The Outlander should beat him.

Superior showings of power, better scaling, pre-existing feats, and more skilled.

January 2nd 2020, 12:23 pm

@BreakOfDawn:

Being above someone in the Force doesn't mean you can stomp them in sabers,

The two are directly correlated via physical augmentation.

especially when they outmatched you when they'd had enough of trying to end the fight without bloodshed and while you had the terrain advantage.

Not convinced something as simple as sand beneath boots was pivotal in shifting the outcome of the duel - wherein Hett gave Kenobi a good fight - after which he experiences mega growth, growth which puts him well out of Kenobi's reach.

Based on?

The fact that he has a quote saying so...

He didn't stalemate SK. Twice in the fight he had the upper hand, with the first case having him poised to strike SK down and the second which had him drive SK back and nearly cause him to fall off the platform's upper ledge.

In the first instance there's no proof Vader would have suceeded, if anything there's evidence to the contrary, and the second was after getting enraged which has been shown to "double" his capabilities. More to the point however, these points would only bolster my arguments.

How is Kenobi > TFU 2 Vader in the Force?

Answered above, but that part of my post was referring to Starkiller.

Environmental feats that unchained Vaylin walks over, and who the Outlander is above in power arguably as early as the end of KOTET.

A) No, he's not.

B) Better than atomising half of a 300m frigate and pulling down a 1.5km ISD? Doubtful.

Superior showings of power, better scaling, pre-existing feats, and more skilled.

Such as?

January 2nd 2020, 1:48 pm

The two are directly correlated via physical augmentation.

Dooku is also >> Obi-Wan in power. Didn't mean Dooku could blitz Kenobi.

Not convinced something as simple as sand beneath boots was pivotal in shifting the outcome of the duel - wherein Hett gave Kenobi a good fight - after which he experiences mega growth, growth which puts him well out of Kenobi's reach.

Actually, it would. Imagine trying to use a defensive form while standing on ground that's constantly shifting and collapsing underneath you, ground that your opponent has extensive knowledge and experience fighting in. It would be pretty instrumental to this.

The fact that he has a quote saying so...

Mind citing it?

In the first instance there's no proof Vader would have suceeded, if anything there's evidence to the contrary,

Vader’s defenses were impenetrable; his lightsaber seemed to arrive a split second before Starkiller’s, every time.

Counters every single one of SK's strikes.

He may have defeated Vader before, but Vader had learned from that mistake. He knew the measure of his former apprentice now. But the same was true in reverse. And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down, Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader’s armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn’t absorb it.

Vader forces SK back and is poised to strike him down when SK exploits his suit's lightning to gain an edge.

and the second was after getting enraged which has been shown to "double" his capabilities.

That "enraged" bit was temporary, described as a "combination" of blows, not his actual offensive intensifying.

More to the point however, these points would only bolster my arguments.

I don't see how, honestly.

Answered above, but that part of my post was referring to Starkiller.

Misunderstood, my bad.

A) No, he's not.

B) Better than atomising half of a 300m frigate

A) Yes, he is.

B) It wasn't "half".

The first came down hard and fast, striking a well-defended portion of the facility outside the dome immediately surrounding her. There was a bright flash of light. The boom followed later, along with a rising sensation that she assumed was the shock wave rolling through the flexible foundations of the ocean-bound facility. She could see the cloning towers swaying from side to side. A vast column of flash-boiled steam and wreckage rose up into the sky. Hot, damp air rushed outward in its wake. Still the other fragment of the ship came toward her.

Seconds remained before it hit—not long enough to think anything coherent, barely time even to observe what was happening. The stricken ship was glowing red, with the last shreds of plasma still clinging to it like flames. Its class was almost unrecognizable, but she made out stumps that might once have been a communications array on the upper port side. That made it a Nebulon-B frigate, one of many EF76s in the service of either the Empire or the Rebel Alliance. It could have been any one of them.

So why, then, did she feel a cold stab of certainty in her gut that this was none other than the Salvation? Her own ship was going to kill her. The irony wasn’t lost on her. At the last instant she made out a tiny human figure standing on the upper hull. The flames and rushing wind swept past him, as though he were impervious to their touch. His arms were

-

The ship was almost upon them when the figure brought his hands down in a fierce, pounding motion, and the last solid fragment of the Salvation exploded into fiery pieces.

If you want to wank this to the max, he blew apart a heavily damaged fragment of the frigate, not half of it. Also supported by the comic:

He blew apart the very front of the frigate, not half of it. Throw in the fact that it was heavily damaged and structurally weakened, and it's not nearly as impressive as you're making it out to be.

Also, he didn't disintegrate it. That was Juno exaggerating:

The ship was almost upon them when the figure brought his hands down in a fierce, pounding motion, and the last solid fragment of the Salvation exploded into fiery pieces.

-

Her eyelids flickered, braving the brightness that only slowly faded around her. A cloud of hot metallic fragments was spreading across the city. Dense splinters rained from it, hissing where they landed. Heavier fragments struck with more substantial thuds, near and far. None struck her. The rain ceased for a moment, and then returned, settling the cloud of dust still further. Of the Salvation, nothing at all remained.

He caused it to explode, that's it. The impact with the tower is what left nothing behind.

and pulling down a 1.5km ISD? Doubtful.

I have time so I'll respond to this in full. You know as well as I do that that's not what happened. First, the ship was incomplete and wasn't even completely filled in inside:

The scaffolding around the nearly completed Star Destroyer had bent and torn completely away,

-

The Star Destroyer’s incomplete frame was acting like a giant tube, and the atmosphere was resonating inside. His whole body sang with it. More.

Second, the star destroyer was already falling:

The scaffolding around the nearly completed Star Destroyer had bent and torn completely away, leaving the ship free to power down into the atmosphere of Raxus Prime.

-

It was coming directly toward him.

-

The Star Destroyer didn’t appear to have moved much in the sky. It was still coming in low on the horizon, aiming to pass over him and strafe him from above.

-

No answer came. The Star Destroyer’s catastrophic reentry made the world shake.

-
The Star Destroyer, now a burning, shrieking meteor, filled his entire forward vision. The hull was peeling away in fiery, golden strips, each one weighing hundreds of tons, exposing the darker skeleton beneath.

-

The Star Destroyer was growing visibly larger and hung like a burning, triangular moon low in the sky of Raxus Prime

-
The reinforced durasteel hull was solid enough to rip a gouge in Raxus Prime that might take centuries to fill. Scavenger droids would have a field day when it came down.

Here's the feat in full:

Can’t you see it, he wanted to say, then realized who he was talking to. He described the scene in as few words as he could, unable to tear his gaze away from the sight of the disintegrating shipyards. Huge, molten chunks were tearing free and tumbling either out into deep space or down into lower orbits while further explosions continued to tear the facility apart. The scaffolding around the nearly completed Star Destroyer had bent and torn completely away, leaving the ship free to power down into the atmosphere of Raxus Prime. Already it was visible as a distinct triangle glowing orange around its leading edges and conning tower. It was coming directly toward him.

The apprentice ignored it all. While the illusion held, he moved his hand a very slight distance to his right. The sensation of containing a vast, million-ton machine in the tip of one finger was deeply disorienting. He felt as though every muscle fiber, nerve, and bone groaned along with the metal seams and joints of the ship. What it felt, he felt, too, and even a small acceleration had a profound effect on such a large scale. It resisted with all the momentum it possessed. Hatches swang open; rivets popped; bulkheads twisted; pipes burst.

The Star Destroyer didn’t appear to have moved much in the sky. It was still coming in low on the horizon, aiming to pass over him and strafe him from above. He shifted his hand a second time, but instead of changing its course he mistakenly gave it a slight tumble. He needed to apply the Force the right way for this to work, taking the growing forces of friction and the shifting of its center of gravity into account. A spinning Star Destroyer would do more damage than one burying itself nosefirst into the cannon and its superstructure. Damage was good, when it came to destroying the Emperor’s handiwork, but too much damage could destroy him and perhaps the Rogue Shadow as well under a deadly rain of molten shrapnel.

Bring it down in one piece, he told himself. Bring it down hard. The ship growled and squealed in metal torment. He was getting the hang of it; he could see how its course was slowly shifting. As wide across as his outstretched hand now, it was hitting the atmosphere at a steeper angle than he had intended, burning bright red and already gouting a trail of black smoke and sparkling debris. He became aware of a sound communicated through his feet: a rumbling much deeper and more sustained than the pounding of the cannon, which had fallen silent after the firing of the third projectile. The Star Destroyer’s incomplete frame was acting like a giant tube, and the atmosphere was resonating inside. His whole body sang with it. More.

The Star Destroyer was really picking up speed now. The thickening atmosphere had a slight braking effect, but nothing could prevent the inevitable. It was going to hit soon. A wild exodus of droids ran past him, fleeing the crash site. The TIE fighters it had launched raced ahead of the chaotic atmospheric waves it generated. He ignored them and concentrated on shifting ground zero as close to the cannon as he could. Sparks danced in front of his eyes. The edges of his vision faded to black. Light and dark swirls spun around him, wraith-like. He felt momentarily faint and wondered if it was possible to dissolve into the Force. He was a speck caught in the updraft over a forest fire—yet somehow he had the audacity to try to command the fire to do his will. Who did he think he was? A sudden panic almost made him lose control. The Star Destroyer, now a burning, shrieking meteor, filled his entire forward vision. The hull was peeling away in fiery, golden strips, each one weighing hundreds of tons, exposing the darker skeleton beneath. It looked like a death’s-head, a ghastly mask not dissimilar to his Master’s, but one molten like lava. This could well be the end of everything, he thought distantly. Of him, of his plans, of his feelings for Juno, and of the boy called Galen who had lost a father a long time ago and whose grief had already been effectively erased. But his name had survived, and names had power. The apprentice clutched at it with desperation, needing to regain control of the Star Destroyer lest it tear itself apart and disperse the impact. He needed to find his focus again, to ignore the feeling of dissolution eating at the edges of his self, and to tip the balance of power back toward him. Galen had stood up to Darth Vader as little more than a child. Galen had wrested the lightsaber from a Dark Lord of the Sith and stood bravely in the face of death. Galen may have been ground down by years of training and darkness since, but was he truly gone—or had he just gone into hiding until the opportunity came to emerge back into the light?

Are you there, Galen? I need your help!

No answer came. The Star Destroyer’s catastrophic reentry made the world shake. There was no time to try again. For Juno, then. He gritted his teeth and snarled at the sky. The dead weight of the Star Destroyer shifted one last time, changing its angle of descent just enough to hang together those last few hundred meters, but not enough to risk bouncing. Only seconds remained before it hit and it was still getting bigger. It was impossible that the sky could contain so much metal! Abandoning his control over the ship, knowing there was nothing now that he could do to alter its course, the apprentice staggered backward, dazed. The Force fled from him, leaving him wrung out and drained. With a sound like the world ending, the Star Destroyer completed its first and final journey. It hit the cannon, exactly as it was supposed to, and the sky turned white. The ground buckled beneath the apprentice’s feet. He pinwheeled, unable to find his balance, as a tsunami of junk and waste rose up ahead of him and blotted out the sun.

What happened:

1. The star destroyer was unfinished, being described as "incomplete", "acting like a giant tube" (AKA hollow), and "nearly completed", as well as lacking its weaponry or other armaments.

2. The star destroyer was heavily damaged as it entered the atmosphere, with the novel describing it as "burning", "a burning, shrieking meteor", the hull as "peeling away" a "dead weight", and "burning bright red".

3. The trajectory of its atmospheric re-entry meant that all Galen had to do was give it a slight nudge a few times.

4. The weight of the star destroyer was decreasing by the second: The Star Destroyer, now a burning, shrieking meteor, filled his entire forward vision. The hull was peeling away in fiery, golden strips, each one weighing hundreds of tons, exposing the darker skeleton beneath.

5. Doing even this left Galen exhausted: Abandoning his control over the ship, knowing there was nothing now that he could do to alter its course, the apprentice staggered backward, dazed. The Force fled from him, leaving him wrung out and drained.

He slightly manipulated a heavily damaged, unfinished star destroyer that was even described as functioning "like a tube" (indicating it was hollow and the interior wasn't finished), which was already plummeting to the surface as a shadow of what it once was. The final, instrumental shove came during a moment of clarity and intense focus:

Galen had stood up to Darth Vader as little more than a child. Galen had wrested the lightsaber from a Dark Lord of the Sith and stood bravely in the face of death. Galen may have been ground down by years of training and darkness since, but was he truly gone—or had he just gone into hiding until the opportunity came to emerge back into the light?

Are you there, Galen? I need your help!

No answer came. The Star Destroyer’s catastrophic reentry made the world shake. There was no time to try again. For Juno, then.

Such as?

Scaling: Growth in a few months from parity with Arcann (KOTET chapter 1) to someone capable of contending (note the word contending, not surpassing) with Vaylin in a telekinetic struggle by chapter 8. He then beat her again when she was being controlled and thus almost certainly guided by Valkorion (considering that he did nothing to intervene), suggesting that he'd grown again by chapter 9. On top of this, he's had over a year to grow between KOTET and Onslaught, on top of his already incredibly fast growth.

Showings of power: Remaining standing against a Force wave that one-shot Arcann, Senya and dissipated spirit Valkorion and made it difficult for him to manifest again, handily defeating Arcann by KOTET chapter 6 in what is implied to be a fairly one-sided duel, his feats as the HoT, and so on.

More skilled: Fighting evenly with Arcann in KOTFE chapter 16 despite being at a clear power disadvantage, outmatching both Arcann and Vaylin (I've covered the latter's skill growth and why she's impressive in my Arcann RT) in duels, carving a path through Zakuulan forces at the end of KOTET, including waves of skytroopers, without too much trouble and in a fairly short space of time, fodderising groups of knights of Zakuul, who are arguably > the average Jedi or Sith, etc. That's on top of his vastly pre-prime feats, such as carving his way through Imperials including the Imperial honour guards (who are feared by even the Dark Council) while on an extremely potent dark side nexus and duelling evenly with Lord Scourge.

January 2nd 2020, 1:52 pm

Vader gained the upper hand by giving SK a massive opening to blast him with Lightning. Lol, good argument.

January 2nd 2020, 1:55 pm

The Apprentice wrote:Vader gained the upper hand by giving SK a massive opening to blast him with Lightning. Lol, good argument.

That's the most pedantic thing I've seen from you so far.

January 2nd 2020, 4:31 pm

Krayt should win, though to what degree I'm not sure.

January 2nd 2020, 6:32 pm

BreakofDawn wrote:

The Apprentice wrote:Vader gained the upper hand by giving SK a massive opening to blast him with Lightning. Lol, good argument.

That's the most pedantic thing I've seen from you so far.

Pedantic? Pedantic would imply I'm latching onto a minor detail, but I don't see how Vader leaving himself open to a counterstrike from SK and losing the fight is a particularly minor point - it's probably the most relevant part of that passage.

January 2nd 2020, 6:57 pm

My point was that he had him outmatched in skill.

January 2nd 2020, 7:09 pm

BreakofDawn wrote: My point was that he had him outmatched in skill.

>Outmatched in skill.
>Leaves a massive opening for SK to hit him with a Lightning blast.

January 2nd 2020, 7:11 pm

Let's just ignore the fact that Vader overwhelmed SK in sabers and pretend that it's a feat for SK that he hit Vader with his most famous weakness when the latter had his defences down. Totally proves they're equal.

January 2nd 2020, 7:17 pm

@BreakofDawn

Let's just ignore the fact that Vader overwhelmed SK in sabers and pretend that it's a feat for SK that he hit Vader with his most famous weakness when the latter had his defences down. Totally proves they're equal.

Vader pushing SK back in sabers and leaving an opening for him to exploit isn't overwhelming him, it's the opposite. As for the latter part of your quote, Vader being weak to Lightning isn't relevant the topic of conversation, it is specifically on whether Vader is more skilled than SK, and Vader leaving an opening for SK to capitalise on doesn't indicate he is.

January 3rd 2020, 8:39 pm

If you're putting someone on the back foot when they were constantly on the offensive during the duel, that is gaining an edge. Vader's lowering of his defences was because he got overconfident and left himself open because he thought he could finish the duel in a single strike. The fact that he was in that position to do that in the first place indicates that he had an edge over SK, an edge that becomes even more apparent when you consider that SK resorted to exploiting Vader's weakness instead of carrying on trying to overwhelm him in sabers. SK makes it abundantly clear that he can't beat Vader in sabers, from describing his defences as "impenetrable" to talking about how Vader was about to knock him off the platform.

January 3rd 2020, 8:59 pm

BreakofDawn wrote:

In the first instance there's no proof Vader would have suceeded, if anything there's evidence to the contrary,

He may have defeated Vader before, but Vader had learned from that mistake. He knew the measure of his former apprentice now. But the same was true in reverse. And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down, Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader’s armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn’t absorb it.

Vader forces SK back and is poised to strike him down when SK exploits his suit's lightning to gain an edge.

Just want to clarify a few things that you brought up ( or in some cases, failed to bring up ) in this part of your post specifically. The first being how Vader was affected by the lightning blast which you did not elaborate on. Worry not though, I have the passage right here:

"But the same was true in reverse. And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down, Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader's armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn't absorb it. The Dark Lord stiffened, betrayed by his extensive prosthetics. The distraction lasted only a moment, but it was enough. Starkiller knocked his blade out of the way and moved in to strike." - The Force Unleashed II.

The lightning blast was enough to cause his prosthetics to freeze up and would have meant his death had Starkiller not been distracted by an untimely vision.

So there's two viable interpretations here that I can see:

1. Starkiller's casual lightning blasts are enough to create openings that enable Starkiller to cut Vader down.

2. Starkiller likely allowed Vader to push him in that instance in order to set up a moment where he could send a concentrated blast of lightning into Vader's armor in order to create an opportunity he could capitalize on.

I'm a proponent of the second option for a multitude of reasons but if you want to argue that an exhausted Starkiller's casual blasts are capable of creating lethal openings in TFUII Vader's defenses, I won't stop you. I'm just curious if that's truly what you believe.

January 3rd 2020, 9:42 pm

@BreakofDawn

I have a few disagreements on The Salvation and ISD feats so here we go.

The Salvation feat:

B) It wasn't "half".

Erm, yes it was:

SK atomised everything before the red line, which is by far the biggest chunk of the ship. This is also supported by the comic scan you posted, wherein the front looks way bigger than the back part that breaks off.

As for your quote saying it was a fragment, Juno identifies both the fore and aft sections of The Salvation as the fragments of it i.e. each half of it (this is generously assuming both parts are equally big which as stated before isn't true). Nothing in the definition of a fragment precludes it from being half of something, you're grasping for straws.

Throw in the fact that it was heavily damaged and structurally weakened, and it's not nearly as impressive as you're making it out to be.

Based on what was it "heavily damaged and structurally weakened"? Parts of it broke off and some of it wasn't fully intact sure, but there's nothing suggesting it was massively damaged like you're suggesting.

Also, he didn't disintegrate it. That was Juno exaggerating:

He caused it to explode, that's it.

You are aware disintegrate and explode are synonymous right, and the definitions for both basically the same? I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to argue here.

The impact with the tower is what left nothing behind.

It didn't hit the tower??? The entire point is that SK blasted it into pieces so it couldn't.

And you're acting as if this debunk totally disproves Starkiller>Vaylin when you cited no comparable environmental feats. Tell me when Vaylin does close to blasting half of a frigate "into a billion pieces", I'll wait.

The ISD Feat:

First, the ship was incomplete and wasn't even completely filled in inside:

---

1. The star destroyer was unfinished, being described as "incomplete", "acting like a giant tube" (AKA hollow), and "nearly completed", as well as lacking its weaponry or other armaments.

This doesn't really address anything DC said, all he noted is that SK shifted a 1.5km ISD which is true enough. Anyway, though, per your own quotes the ISD was "nearly complete", so clearly any potential shit it was missing (e.g. the frame being unfinished) wouldn't detract from its overall mass that much. As for it being hollow, what does that prove? All it being compared to a giant tube necessitates is that there's space inside for the atmosphere to resonate in, but that's also true for a fully completed ISD.

Besides all of this is pedantic nitpicking, despite all of this the ISD is still a "a vast, million-ton machine", meaning it still weighs and absolute shit ton.

2. The star destroyer was heavily damaged as it entered the atmosphere, with the novel describing it as "burning", "a burning, shrieking meteor", the hull as "peeling away" a "dead weight", and "burning bright red".

4. The weight of the star destroyer was decreasing by the second: The Star Destroyer, now a burning, shrieking meteor, filled his entire forward vision. The hull was peeling away in fiery, golden strips, each one weighing hundreds of tons, exposing the darker skeleton beneath.

Absolutely none of this necessitates it was heavily damaged.

Quotes 1, 2, and 5: It can be on fire, but still, be intact. Once again, you're grasping for straws.

Quote 3/6: The hull peels away right at the end of the feat, SK only tugs at it once more after that happens so it doesn't affect the feat considerably. And once again, part of the ship coming off does not indicate massive damage, nor make the feat massively worse. This is barely worth noting - you're grasping for every minuscule thing you can to make the feat worse.

Quote 5: What? How does the terminology "dead weight" remotely imply it's heavily damaged (do you even know what "dead weight" means)? All dead weight implies is that he's shifting something that lacks the ability to move, it tells us absolutely nothing about the structural damage to the ISD.

3. The trajectory of its atmospheric re-entry meant that all Galen had to do was give it a slight nudge a few times.

Nudge it a few times so it shifted its course a full 90 degrees like the comic and game portray? Yes, I agree, that's extremely impressive BoD.

5. Doing even this left Galen exhausted: Abandoning his control over the ship, knowing there was nothing now that he could do to alter its course, the apprentice staggered backward, dazed. The Force fled from him, leaving him wrung out and drained.

Not relevant to DC's claim??? SK being exhausted doesn't detract from the feat in the slightest when Vaylin doesn't have anything close to similar.

He slightly manipulated a heavily damaged, unfinished star destroyer that was even described as functioning "like a tube" (indicating it was hollow and the interior wasn't finished), which was already plummeting to the surface as a shadow of what it once was.

Uh-huh... All of this has been refuted, my boy.

The final, instrumental shove came during a moment of clarity and intense focus:

SK realising he possess the strength to do what he needs to do and can invoke it via thoughts of Juno is a permanent revelation, hell, he consistently draws on his love for Juno throughout TFU 2.

January 3rd 2020, 9:58 pm

BreakofDawn wrote:
5. Doing even this left Galen exhausted: Abandoning his control over the ship, knowing there was nothing now that he could do to alter its course, the apprentice staggered backward, dazed. The Force fled from him, leaving him wrung out and drained.

Just thought I'd address this part of your post as well since HP kind of glossed over it in his own. Galen had powered the blast of a cannon that brought down the ISD factory over Raxus Prime, which, according to Juno, was the larger structure she'd ever seen prior to the ISD feat.

"The shipyard rose up over the planet's filthy horizon like some strange, mechanical moon. Disk shaped, with complex docks and cranes radiating from its outer edge, it was by far the largest artificial structure she had ever seen. Over a dozen Star Destroyers were currently in dry dock: one nearly complete, the others triangular shells at various stages of manufacture.

Note: Juno Eclipse had seen superstructures like the Executor, and the Kashyyyk skyhook. The latter structure being an orbital trading station the base of which starts on the surface of Kashyyyk and stretches all the way into the planet's atmosphere.

This would have reasonably been a far larger contributor to Galen's exhaustion than the ISD feat.

January 3rd 2020, 10:04 pm

@BoD:

Dooku is also >> Obi-Wan in power. Didn't mean Dooku could blitz Kenobi.

Because the gap wasn't wide enough...

Actually, it would. Imagine trying to use a defensive form while standing on ground that's constantly shifting and collapsing underneath you, ground that your opponent has extensive knowledge and experience fighting in. It would be pretty instrumental to this.

Didn't seem to bother Jinn or Maul when they duelled on Tatooine. At best it's a mild advantage for Hett, not enough to make up for the astronomical gap between him and Krayt, and thus the conclusion is the same. Krayt>>>Kenobi based off how well Hett performed.

Mind citing it?

Here:

Star Wars Art Treasures 26 wrote:"At first, Lucas and the writers debated whether it was appropriate for Vader to resort to these "tricks" and if viewers wouldn't wonder why he hadn't used them during his duel with Obi-Wan on the Death Star, but immediately arose the simple explanation that Obi-Wan was more powerful than Vader so it would have proved useless."

Happy?

Counters every single one of SK's strikes.

The same is true in reverse.

Vader forces SK back and is poised to strike him down when SK exploits his suit's lightning to gain an edge.

I think it's likely SK let himself get forced back to create an opening so he could hit his adversaries suit with a concentrated blast of lightning, given they were at a stalemate. That's the notion that seems most in line with what's portrayed within the text.

That "enraged" bit was temporary, described as a "combination" of blows, not his actual offensive intensifying.

A little convenient that Vader suddenly gains the upper hand upon being taunted, a little bit of a consistent theme (Same thing happened in TFU against Galen, and against Luke in ESB). Gee, it's almost like he's enraged or something, and that rage bolsters his strength to extraordinary levels.

I don't see how, honestly.

Because I'm arguing Krayt scales vastly above Starkiller based off his massive superiority to Kenobi, who in turn is superior to the same iteration of Vader that matched Starkiller, and thus he scales to all the latters feats and accolades. Vader being better only widens the gap between Starkiller and Krayt, so this entire debate is pointless.

As far as I can tell none of what you wrote compares to Galen's ISD and Salvation feats, his stomping of TFU Vader and his "all but perfected the fine art of lightsaber combat" accolade. I'd appreciate citations for everything as well, I'm not too familiar with KOTFE/KOTET material. HP's told me he'll deal with the environmental feats, hence their absence from my post.

January 3rd 2020, 10:21 pm

@BreakofDawn

If you're putting someone on the back foot when they were constantly on the offensive during the duel, that is gaining an edge.

As Syn has already explained it's likely SK let him do it, and besides even if he didn't let Vader do it, this isn't an indicator of superiority - consistently throughout the mythos characters who aren't stronger than their opponent have forced them back e.g. Anakin vs Dooku in AOTC, and Luke vs Vader in ESB.

Vader's lowering of his defences was because he got overconfident and left himself open because he thought he could finish the duel in a single strike.

Bullshit, there's no indication Vader got overconfident, all we know is he left himself open to SK, a reason is never given.

The fact that he was in that position to do that in the first place indicates that he had an edge over SK,

Even if you want to view it like this, the result is still the same. Vader misjudged and overextended leaving himself open to counterattack and lost the fight because of it, ergo he's clearly not as skilled as SK who leaves no openings for Vader to exploit throughout the entire fight.

an edge that becomes even more apparent when you consider that SK resorted to exploiting Vader's weakness instead of carrying on trying to overwhelm him in sabers.

Who wouldn't exploit their opponent's weakness when they have an opening to do so? This does nothing to prove Vader had the advantage, and even if he did, as already noted it's not an indicator of superiority.

SK makes it abundantly clear that he can't beat Vader in sabers, from describing his defences as "impenetrable" to talking about how Vader was about to knock him off the platform.

SK makes it abundantly clear he can't breach Vader's defences, because Vader had specifically tailored his fighting style to make sure he didn't leave himself open so SK had to create an opening. Again, you're ignoring context and talking out of your ass, to shield yourself from the unbearable truth that SK won the fight.

The Outlander vs Darth Krayt