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AncientPowerSuspect Hero | Level Four
Re: Darth Vader vs Kyp Durron
December 9th 2019, 3:57 am
Is there any argument? This is spite, Kyp wrecks.
EmperorCaedusLevel Three
Re: Darth Vader vs Kyp Durron
December 9th 2019, 1:06 pm
Vader if Knightfall, Kyp if suit.
MasterCilghalLevel Three
Re: Darth Vader vs Kyp Durron
December 9th 2019, 1:50 pm
Suited Vader stands no chance against prime Kyp, unless you think he can replicate the dovin basal feat.
NevesYtneves (DC77)Level Seven
Re: Darth Vader vs Kyp Durron
December 9th 2019, 1:58 pm
@MasterCilghal He doesn't have to be able to, he just has to be close enough that he can't get one shotted, and then trounce the Kyle level scrub in sabers.
- MasterCilghalLevel Three
Re: Darth Vader vs Kyp Durron
December 9th 2019, 2:08 pm
I honestly think Kyp can one shot Vader. Regardless, Prime Kyp’s lightsaber skill is unknown, not necessarily on par with Katarn ( who is nonetheless one of the best Jedi of the era), the comparison applies only to FOTJ Kyp/Katarn.In fact, at this point he is noted to be significantly above TUF!Jacen who can take out a group of vong by himself. I don’t think it’s bad considering that vong are a match for Jedi.DC77 (Reborn) wrote:@MasterCilghal He doesn't have to be able to, he just has to be close enough that he can't get one shotted, and then trounce him the Kyle level scrub in sabers.
lorenzo.r.2ndLevel Three
Re: Darth Vader vs Kyp Durron
December 9th 2019, 2:29 pm
he cant one shot vader. he is still below yoda lvl, even in his prime, iirc, and even yoda isnt one shotting vader. and him being a match for katarn is good, not bad, but vader is considered the best duelist alive just TFU 1. that puts him around yoda/sheev lvls tbh. he then got much better, than much better after that, then much better after that too, etc.
killing vong is actually really good, but we have seen vader a month or so after mustafar killing some of the best jedi alive post order 66. even if he still lost, he had just gotten into the suit, could barely hold his new lightsaber in his hand, and couldnt even look down, or lean forward too much without the danger of falling down lol
killing vong is actually really good, but we have seen vader a month or so after mustafar killing some of the best jedi alive post order 66. even if he still lost, he had just gotten into the suit, could barely hold his new lightsaber in his hand, and couldnt even look down, or lean forward too much without the danger of falling down lol
- NevesYtneves (DC77)Level Seven
Re: Darth Vader vs Kyp Durron
December 9th 2019, 2:38 pm
@MasterCilghal:
Why? Who has Kyp ever one shotted of note?
You appear to be arguing pre-FOTJ is Kyp's prime? On what is this based? Also, Kyle being amongst the best of the era doesn't remotely impress me compared to what Vader's bringing to the table.
I don't think scaling to fodder feats necessarily works that well when comparing characters for a variety of reasons tbh.
I honestly think Kyp can one shot Vader.
Why? Who has Kyp ever one shotted of note?
Regardless, Prime Kyp’s lightsaber skill is unknown, not necessarily on par with Katarn ( who is nonetheless one of the best Jedi of the era), the comparison applies only to FOTJ Kyp/Katarn
You appear to be arguing pre-FOTJ is Kyp's prime? On what is this based? Also, Kyle being amongst the best of the era doesn't remotely impress me compared to what Vader's bringing to the table.
In fact, at this point he is noted to be significantly above TUF!Jacen who can take out a group of vong by himself. I don’t think it’s bad considering that vong are a match for Jedi.
I don't think scaling to fodder feats necessarily works that well when comparing characters for a variety of reasons tbh.
BreakofDawnLevel Seven
Re: Darth Vader vs Kyp Durron
December 9th 2019, 2:57 pm
Vader. Far better in sabers and strong enough to hold his own in the Force.
ZenwolfLevel One
Re: Darth Vader vs Kyp Durron
December 9th 2019, 4:37 pm
DC77 (Reborn) wrote:
I don't think scaling to fodder feats necessarily works that well when comparing characters for a variety of reasons tbh.
Why? Just curious.
- MasterCilghalLevel Three
Re: Darth Vader vs Kyp Durron
December 13th 2019, 4:23 pm
DC77 (reborn) wrote:Why? Who has Kyp ever one shotted of note?
While it is true Kyp feats against other force users are lacking compared to his environmental ones, he does have a few of them that lead me to believe that he would be just as effective against a single opponent, as opposed to someone like Starkiller. For example he has seized Dark journey!Jaina with the force without any difficulty:
Dark journey wrote:The Jedi Master stormed into the building and up the stairs. The guards who moved to stop him flew aside, untouched by any visible hand or weapon.
The Wookie stepped forward, and Kyp aimed a psychic blast that send the two-and-a-half meter, ginger-furred Jedi straggered back.
He seized Jaina with the same dark energy and spun her to face him.‘
Or hurled Luke Skywalker himself, as a demonstration of his potential:
Jedi search wrote:Luke closed his eyes and sent a tendril of thought to the back of Kyp’s mind where the deep primal memories hid, leaving little room for conscious thought. Luke touched inward to the isolated nub in his subconscious thought. He pushed - and suddenly found himself hurled backward, tossed aside like a piece of fluff in a Bespin wind storm. He landed flat on his back on the other side of the room, gasping.
Now, as for why I consider Kyp’s overall showings far superior, let’s look at the famous dovin basal one (which I don’t think I need to post, unless you want me to). While obvious Kyp was left tired, the feat itself becomes quite impressive when we look at what dovin basals can do and have done. In fact, we know from several sources that adult dovin basals are capable of “shallowing incoming blasts” ( a UnuThul level feat, no less ) , shut down the shields of a spacecraft and, most impressively, pulling moons into planets:
(The ultimate alien anthology)
(Both from the complete SW Encyclopedia)
As such, even if this was accomplished with strain it’s still much better than any feat from Vader, at least as far as I know. If Vader has has any that are comparable then I’d be happy to hear them.
And not only that, but this same feat required Luke (at the beginning of the Vong war) to “open himself to the force more fully han he had in years” to the point where “the force flooded into him, at once molten-metal hot”, indicating at least a moderate effort on his part:
Dark tide 1 Onslaught wrote:He opened himself to the Force more fully than he had in years. He sought more power than he had when freeing his nephew. The Force flooded into him, at once molten-metal hot, yet as soothing as a cool rain. It swirled through him, filling every cell of his body, freeing him from fatigue, sharpening his mind.
Luke reached out with that power and latched onto the void that the Yuuzhan Vong vehicle had created. He pushed a bit, then tugged, in nanoseconds getting a feel for the power the dovin basals were able to exert to control the void. He almost smiled, since that amount of power was nothing compared to the Force, but he stopped himself short of pride in that fact.
He also uses more power than he had to save his nephew. This is notable as in that specific instance Luke enhanced his strength to the point where he could one shot a vong (I think you’re aware of how durable vong warriors are) with a pommel strike, shatter a lightsaber-resistant amphistaff and battle others while in the same time moving stones enough to generate a “cyclone”:
- Spoiler:
- Then, distantly, he heard the snap-hiss of a lightsaber being ignited. Almost as if an echo, the sound repeated itself. The youth raised his head and looked out the doorway, past the creeper. Half the rising sun burned in the east, pouring molten gold light out over the horizon, and in the center of it came a dark form. It broadened slightly as it approached, and two green blades flanked it. Closer it came and closer, resolving itself into a Jedi Master, dark cloak flowing behind him, twin blades held more like warning torches than weapons.
While his uncle was distant enough to seem no taller than a toy figure, a Yuuzhan Vong warrior darted at him from the left. The Yuuzhan Vong smashed his amphistaff down at Luke's head. The Jedi Master raised his right lightsaber to block the blow and could have easily stroked the other blade across the Yuuzhan Vong's unprotected stomach. Instead he pivoted on his left foot, scything his right leg through the Yuuzhan Vong's legs, dumping the alien hard to the rock-strewn ground. Luke then brought his right hand down and smashed the pommel of his lightsaber into the Yuuzhan Vong's face, leaving the warrior limp in the dust.
Another Yuuzhan Vong came in from the right and slashed his amphistaff at Luke's middle. Luke leapt back from the tip, then caught the return cut on both lightsaber blades. He raised the amphistaff high in a parry, then spun beneath it. As the Yuuzhan Vong warrior whirled to face the Jedi Master again, a fist-size stone shot from the ground and clipped the warrior in the side of the head. It shattered his helmet, spraying pieces of it into the air, then another slammed into his shoulder. More stones stormed through the air as if trapped in a cyclone, battering the alien warrior relentlessly. Finally one arced in at his forehead, skipped off the shallow dome of his head, and dropped him cleanly to the dirt.
A third warrior came at Luke, but he displayed more caution than his enthusiastic companions had. He twirled his amphistaff around like a propeller, arcing cuts in at Luke's feet or head. The Jedi Master dodged back, then leapt above a slash. He used the Force to push himself high in the air, then he twisted through a somersault and landed behind his foe.
The Yuuzhan Vong whipped around and snapped a kick through Luke's legs. The blow caught Luke in the ankles, dumping him on his back. The Yuuzhan Vong continued his spin, then came up and brought his amphistaff around in an overhand blow at Luke's head.
In the time it took for his foe to complete a revolution, the Jedi Master rolled through a backward somersault and came up on one knee. He raised the lightsabers and crossed them, catching the amphistaff above his head at the green blades' nexus. Furious at being caught, the Yuuzhan Vong flexed his amphistaff, which opened a fang-filled mouth. It reared back, ready to strike at Luke's face. The amphistaff's hiss and the Yuuzhan Vong's triumphant snarl filled the air.
Then Luke slashed both lightsabers outward, drawing their glowing lengths over the amphistaff's throat. While its flesh might have been dense enough to prevent a lightsaber from immediately shearing through it, the double assault snipped the first twenty-five centimeters from the amphistaff with no problem. The rest of the amphistaff recoiled in pain, and the Yuuzhan Vong warrior, who had been leaning heavily on the amphistaff to keep Luke down, stumbled forward. Without rising, Luke brought his right lightsaber up to stroke the Yuuzhan Vong's belly, then spun and slashed the other against the back of the warrior's thighs.
The warrior collapsed to the ground. The remains of its amphistaff writhed in the dust beside him, gradually subsiding.
DC77 (reborn) wrote:You appear to be arguing pre-FOTJ is Kyp's prime? On what is this based?
It’s based on Kyp’s concession in Exile, which is honestly fully supported in the lore, given Kyp’s showings in that time period are lacking, as Kenth Hamner pinning him can attest, for example. Unless, of course, you have a feat or statement to disprove the quote. Essentially, Kyp notes he would not be able to replicate some of the feats he accomplished in his youth, despite his skill in the force having increased:
Exile wrote:When I was still a teenager, I was able to reach into the gravity well of a gas giant and pull a spacecraft out of it. That's something that not many Masters could accomplish. I could do it because I was strong in the Force ... and because I had absolute faith in my right, my need to use that craft for a specific purpose. But I doubt I could do it today. I'm no weaker in the Force, and I'm a lot more skilled... but today I'd know that my intended purpose was not a good one, and this knowledge would deny me the focus I needed then to perform that task. So was I a Master then, or am I a Master now?"
So it would follow that Kyp as of FOTJ or LOTF would not be able to consistently replicate the feats he accomplished in his prime. He no longer in his purely in a mental way: his power is the same but his willingness to use it has decreased because he understood the purpose behind those actions and has found a new one. As a result, i do think Kyp’s overall combat effectiveness would be greatly reduced. Essentially, he is the opposite of Luke, who went from being (generally) unwilling to use his full power because of the consequences of it to using it multiple time, specifically against Abeloth. Against Vader though, given Kyp’s overall distaste (downright hatred in his youth) towards the empire, I do think it is possible and likely he might use his full power:
Filled with righteous vengeance, Kyp sought to end the Empire's destructive ways.
-databank: Kyp Durron
DC77 (reborn) wrote:Also, Kyle being amongst the best of the era doesn't remotely impress me compared to what Vader's bringing to the table.
May I ask why? Vader’s lightsaber feats aren’t all that impressive either. He’s much more accolades than feats tbh.
DC77 (reborn) wrote:I don't think scaling to fodder feats necessarily works that well when comparing characters for a variety of reasons tbh.
The issue is though, vong are hardly fodder. Even a single vong warrior can move fast enough to where Jaina has some difficulty following him:
Star by star wrote:In a motion so fast Jaina barely saw it, the warrior sat up and flicked his coufee at her throat. She could have dodged or blocked with her lightsaber, but she did not. Instead, with the fierce energy crackling inside her, she used her free hand to bat the weapon aside, then raised her hand toward her attacker and released the dark power inside. A fork of lightning crackled into existence a few centimeters beyond her glove tips, then blasted a hole through the Yuuzhan Vong's chest and hurled him onto the rubble pile smoking and motionless.
Or it took 5 Mandalorians to take down a single vong warrior:
Boba Fett: a practical man wrote:It took five Mandos to tackle one Yuuzhan Vong this time. But they'd learned a lot about how to kill them in just that one brief tussle. They'd learn plenty more.
The fact that Jacen can take a group of them despite being, per his own admission nowhere near Durron, says a lot.
Ultimately, I hope my response was worth the wait. As you already know, I’m taking a hiatus from debating so I won’t be able to respond to your rebuttal, provided that there will be one.
HeartoftheForceLevel Two
Re: Darth Vader vs Kyp Durron
December 13th 2019, 4:54 pm
Kyp is comparable to Katarn. He loses badly.
- NevesYtneves (DC77)Level Seven
Re: Darth Vader vs Kyp Durron
December 14th 2019, 11:10 am
@MasterCilghal Nice to see you debating again. Let's get to it:
The Starkiller point is bait, and you know it. As for the examples provided, I don't think Kyp catching Luke off guard, someone who's notorious for jobbing, nor gripping NJO Jaina, who's basically fodder, to be indications he's capable of dismissing someone of Vader's calibre with telekenisis.
I don't think Vader does, but that's not the point I'm trying to raise here, which is that Vader wins through superior combative capability and mastery, not greater raw power. When we consider that Sheev as of TCW, who's already the most powerful sith lord up to that point, is incapable of dismissing Maul without an opening, in spite of the massive gap between them, I don't find it feasible that Kyp is somehow a one shot gap above Vader.
Kyp's concession as of Exile related specifically to power, I think trying to apply it as meaning his saber capability decreased is disingenious, to say the least.
You may. Let's take a walk down memory lane, shall we, starting with Galen. Under Vader's vicious tutelage, he all but perfected the fine art of lightsaber combat:
This as good an accolade as you can find for either Kyle or Durron, and Galen's physical training was far more intense than either of theirs. On paper, he's a better duellist than either, and he's all but fodder to Vader. As seen at the start of TFU, he's more or less matched by the likes of Kota:
Who, himself, is vastly beneath Shaak Ti:
Yet Galen himself later matches her upon improvement:
Galen continues to advance beyond this point for the rest of TFU until he meets Vader, who matches him blow for blow:
Yet after Galen "understands a better way to kill" he dominates the sith lord:
Later, when the two face off in TFU 2, after Vader improves himself, the battle is more or less evenly matched:
Following this, Vader grows far more formidable:
A fact made apparent by his contrasting performances against Luke and Ben, the former of whom surpasses the latter:
Yet, while Vader versus Ben in ANH is stated to be a battle of equals, Luke versus Vader is credited as a "slightly one-sided sword fight".
Essentially:
ROTJ Vader>ESB Vader>>ESB Luke>ANH Ben=ANH Vader>TFU 2 Vader=TFU 2 Galen>>>>TFU Vader=TFU Galen>>>>Shaak Ti~Felucia Galen>>Kota~Beginning Of TFU Galen.
Can Kyp match? Probably not.
As for the rest of your post, I don't think fodder feats scale well due to characters having different skillsets, with some being better suited to engage multiple opponents, hence why I don't see Kyp's scaling from Jacen's Vong showing to be relevant or legitimate.
While it is true Kyp feats against other force users are lacking compared to his environmental ones, he does have a few of them that lead me to believe that he would be just as effective against a single opponent, as opposed to someone like Starkiller.
The Starkiller point is bait, and you know it. As for the examples provided, I don't think Kyp catching Luke off guard, someone who's notorious for jobbing, nor gripping NJO Jaina, who's basically fodder, to be indications he's capable of dismissing someone of Vader's calibre with telekenisis.
As such, even if this was accomplished with strain it’s still much better than any feat from Vader, at least as far as I know. If Vader has has any that are comparable then I’d be happy to hear them.
I don't think Vader does, but that's not the point I'm trying to raise here, which is that Vader wins through superior combative capability and mastery, not greater raw power. When we consider that Sheev as of TCW, who's already the most powerful sith lord up to that point, is incapable of dismissing Maul without an opening, in spite of the massive gap between them, I don't find it feasible that Kyp is somehow a one shot gap above Vader.
It’s based on Kyp’s concession in Exile, which is honestly fully supported in the lore, given Kyp’s showings in that time period are lacking, as Kenth Hamner pinning him can attest, for example
Kyp's concession as of Exile related specifically to power, I think trying to apply it as meaning his saber capability decreased is disingenious, to say the least.
May I ask why?
You may. Let's take a walk down memory lane, shall we, starting with Galen. Under Vader's vicious tutelage, he all but perfected the fine art of lightsaber combat:
The Complete Star Wars Enclyclopedia wrote:The Apprentice’s training was harsh and unforgiving: Vader subject the boy to rigorous physical tests bordering on torture. He first controlled the boy through fear, and then taught him to embrace hatred and other base emotions. As the boy grew older, Vader promised him greater power - through the dark side. Under Vader’s relentless tutelage, the Apprentice all but perfected the fine art of lightsaber combat and learned to wield many fearsome dark side powers.
This as good an accolade as you can find for either Kyle or Durron, and Galen's physical training was far more intense than either of theirs. On paper, he's a better duellist than either, and he's all but fodder to Vader. As seen at the start of TFU, he's more or less matched by the likes of Kota:
The Force Unleashed wrote:The duel raged all across the control center, which shook and rattled as the facility around it broke apart. The apprentice ignored everything else-Juno's voice, the wildly fluctuating gravity, the never-ending explosions, the rising temperature of the floor beneath him-in order to concentrate solely on this one vital battle. Kota wouldn't beat him, but could he beat Kota? He had to.
Who, himself, is vastly beneath Shaak Ti:
Insider 140 wrote:After an inconclusive victory against Rahm Kota, and a more final one against the mad Paratus, Starkiller takes on a far more formidable foe in this classic scene: Shaak Ti, one of the most powerful Jedi.
Yet Galen himself later matches her upon improvement:
The Force Unleashed wrote:The fight progressed around the sarlacc’s center rings, blow and counterblow accompanied by the roaring of the beast. The apprentice cut off teeth and threw the fragments at his adversary’s head. In return she took tighter control of the beast’s distributed intelligence and sent its food-seeking tentacles flailing for him. He repulsed them and fought on.
Galen continues to advance beyond this point for the rest of TFU until he meets Vader, who matches him blow for blow:
The Force Unleashed wrote:They fought back and forth across the observation dome.
Yet after Galen "understands a better way to kill" he dominates the sith lord:
The Force Unleashed wrote:I don't hate you," the apprentice went on, blocking him blow for blow. "I pity you." With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot. "You destroyed who I was and made me as I am now, but this wasn't your idea. It was the Emperor's, and it's what he's already done to you." A strip of Darth Vader's cape fluttered away, smoking. The two came closer together until they were face-to-mask. The apprentice stared directly into the black eye guards of his former Master. "You are his creature just as I was yours-but you've never had the strength to rebel. That's why I pity you. I will no longer serve a monster, and if I have my way I'll make sure you don't, either."
Vader tried to pull away, but the apprentice followed him, keeping him on the back foot.
"I will kill you," he said, "to set you free."
The lightsabers flashed again-and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for. Vader's lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice's blade to slash deeply across his armored throat. Vader staggered backward, gloved hand upraised to the smoking wound.
Later, when the two face off in TFU 2, after Vader improves himself, the battle is more or less evenly matched:
The Force Unleashed 2 wrote:Vader himself fought more cautiously than he had on the Death Star, the last time they had dueled in earnest. His armor seemed to have improved, too; it was less vulnerable to lightning than it had been just days before. Vader threw wrecked platforms and cloning rubes at him, while he scored three slashes to the Dark Lord's cape in return. They circled the top of the cloning tower, striking and assessing, then striking again. Starkiller swore that he would not give in to anger or frustration. If that was what Darth Vader wanted, he wasn't going to get it. The only emotion he would give in to was love. Finally, Starkiller saw an opportunity. They were exchanging rapid blows along the edge of the buckled platform, blades swinging so fast they were visible only as blurs. Vader's defenses were impenetrable; his lightsaber seemed to arrive a split second before Starkiller's, every time. He may have defeated Vader before, but Vader had learned from that mistake. He knew the measure of his former apprentice now.
Following this, Vader grows far more formidable:
Insider 62 wrote:Within the armed forces Vader now holds absolute power over the higher Imperial officers who scorned him earlier in his career. This situation reflects Vader's greater mastery over himself and over the Force in the time since the Battle of Yavin, an improvement that is readily apparent in his lightsaber style during the duel with Luke Skywalker on Bespin. Vader has largely freed himself of pain through the Force in the years since the Battle of Yavin and, by practice with living opponents both willing and unwilling, he has advanced his lightsaber technique. Baron Orman Tagge serves as testament to Vader's technique by this era, precisely blinded in both eyes by Vader's blade in a duel. Vader is thus a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star.
A fact made apparent by his contrasting performances against Luke and Ben, the former of whom surpasses the latter:
Empire Strikes Back: Radio Drama wrote:“You have been learning, you’re young and quick, you offer me better sport than the old man.”
Yet, while Vader versus Ben in ANH is stated to be a battle of equals, Luke versus Vader is credited as a "slightly one-sided sword fight".
Essentially:
ROTJ Vader>ESB Vader>>ESB Luke>ANH Ben=ANH Vader>TFU 2 Vader=TFU 2 Galen>>>>TFU Vader=TFU Galen>>>>Shaak Ti~Felucia Galen>>Kota~Beginning Of TFU Galen.
Can Kyp match? Probably not.
As for the rest of your post, I don't think fodder feats scale well due to characters having different skillsets, with some being better suited to engage multiple opponents, hence why I don't see Kyp's scaling from Jacen's Vong showing to be relevant or legitimate.
- MasterCilghalLevel Three
Re: Darth Vader vs Kyp Durron
January 15th 2020, 8:33 am
I apologize for the late response, unfortunately I’ve had a lot of homework to do and was unable to complete it quickly. Anyway, I hope this post will be worth the wait.
The issue is that Kyp’s feat is made out to be an example of his potential, for which Luke praises him repeatedly:
Just imagine this hypothetical conversation:
“Kyp is so powerful!”
“What has he done?”
“Nothing, just a force push while I was distracted and using 0.001% of my power, which any random force user with a name can do”
I think it’s clear the lore implies Kyp, at his full power, can replicate the feat, and that’s against an iteration of Luke who is much more powerful than Vader.
The point about Luke should suffice, though I would like to know what makes you think Jaina is fodder.
So yes, while mine is speculation, there is definitely this possibility.
Your point about his training doesn’t work either, because while both Katarn and Kyp may not have had the same intense training, they have had a lot of chances to test their skills in combat situations, some of whom were against uncommon opponents (Jerec’s dark jedi, the Vong…) and in desperate situations so i fail to see how a more intense training would be enough to place Marek above either of the two.
However, here we come to the main point, Vader’s superiority to Marek, at least based on the example you provided (Kota) is strictly adheres to the force, not necessarily technical skill. Vader can ragdoll Kota yes, but we don’t know how good he is as a duelist compared to Kota, at least purely examining technical skill.
“far more formidable foe” may refer to Ti’s strength in the force compared Kota’s, not necessarily her being a far more skilled opponent when it comes to overall combat skill. And even if that is the case, it’s not very impressive for Galen or Kota, since Ti’s lightsaber feats are simply lacking and unimpressive , such as being given long fight by a Magnaguard ( As even you have admitted repeatedly), which makes me further question the quote you presented for Galen’s mastery.
I agree with the rest of the scaling, but given it’s built on a flawed comparison, I’m gonna move on and present my own.
Unlike you believe, there is a potential way to get Kyp below Vader in technical skill through a comparison within the empire. et’s start from the dark side elite. Those individuals include some of Palpatine’s strongest servants:
Which is supported by their knowledge of alchemy, a practice oted to be “suited only for masters" and for the most powerful Sith Lords (per the dark side sourcebook). Then we have Kam Solusar, a member of those, whom, after being redeemed by Luke Skywalker, experiences the usual megaKenobian!growth (or Solusarian, if you absolutely want it):
Which leads him to one shot the leader of the elite, Vill Goir, overcoming both his opponent’s skill and force augmentation.
Considering what we know of the elite, i don’t think Vader would have been able to replicate this, especially considering that members of the elite are above theimperial grey sentinel, who themselves scale above imperial guards, the same guards who are stated to be “almost a match for Darth Vader”, per several Goat quotes:
(Dark side sourcebook)
While obviously Vader can dispatch those with the force, it does not help that the guards, who scale below the elite in all areas has an obvious consequence that Vader is outclassed in technical skill.
Now you may be wondering what Kyp has to do with Solusar. In regards to force power Kyp Is stated to be light-years above him per I,jedi whereas Katarn, Kyp’s equal, is stated to be the academy’s foremost battlemaster, most likely placing him above Solusar:
What we’re ultimately left with is a potential scaling chain placing Kyp above Vader in sabers (not to mention some of Vader’s not-so-good which I shall mention in my next response ) and Kyp completely outclassing Vader in the force, which you have been unable to adequately disprove.
It was not intended as bait (even if baiting HP is always fun). Starkiller is specifically specifically noted as a TK savant in the force unleashed campaign guide and I think it’s clear his feats against other force users are lacking compared to his environmental ones, which as I said is not the same with Kyp.DC77 (reborn) wrote:The Starkiller point is bait, and you know it.
DC77 (reborn) wrote:As for the examples provided, I don't think Kyp catching Luke off guard, someone who's notorious for jobbing
The issue is that Kyp’s feat is made out to be an example of his potential, for which Luke praises him repeatedly:
Dark apprentice wrote:When Luke had used a Jedi testing technique to see if Kyp had potential to use the Force, the boy’s response had knocked Luke across the room. In his entire Jedi search, Luke had never encountered such power.‘
Just imagine this hypothetical conversation:
“Kyp is so powerful!”
“What has he done?”
“Nothing, just a force push while I was distracted and using 0.001% of my power, which any random force user with a name can do”
I think it’s clear the lore implies Kyp, at his full power, can replicate the feat, and that’s against an iteration of Luke who is much more powerful than Vader.
DC77 (reborn) wrote:nor gripping NJO Jaina, who's basically fodder, to be indications he's capable of dismissing someone of Vader's calibre with telekenisis.
The example you provided does not help your point. First, you’ll have to prove that Sidious cannot casually dismiss Maul, as I’m not familiar with that fight, at least when it comes to the novel version of it. However,we know Kenobi, Maul’s equal/superior by ROTS can dismissed by Dooku without too much difficulty, and I think you’ll agree with me Dooku is not Sidious’s equal in power. So either your example is an outlier or you’re misinterpreting the text. Another possibility is that the gap between Maul and Sidious as of TCW is not very large, especially when comparisons with Savage Opress place his version of Maul far above the prior one, which was literally within the blitz range for Sheev. You also have to prove that the two gaps we’re dealing with are somehow comparable. As a matter of fact, Kyp is a lot more powerful than Vader and outstrips him immensely in feats (remember Luke opening himself fully?) which is all the force when one considers that Kyp is more than likely to unleash his full power against Vader.DC77 (reborn) wrote:I don't think Vader does, but that's not the point I'm trying to raise here, which is that Vader wins through superior combative capability and mastery, not greater raw power. When we consider that Sheev as of TCW, who's already the most powerful sith lord up to that point, is incapable of dismissing Maul without an opening, in spite of the massive gap between them, I don't find it feasible that Kyp is somehow a one shot gap above Vader.
We were addressing Kyp’s overall combative ability, which would be severely diminished without him being able to unleash his full power, as he could in his younger years. Regardless, I don’t find it far fetched to argue that Kyp’s lightsaber skill may have diminished after the Vong war. We know, for example, that he same happened to Kenobi , as he had no opponent to face against during his exile (so did Kyp):DC77 (reborn) wrote:Kyp's concession as of Exile related specifically to power, I think trying to apply it as meaning his saber capability decreased is disingenious, to say the least.
This duel was very different from their last. Obi-Wan was older and weaker . . .
So yes, while mine is speculation, there is definitely this possibility.
Aside from the fact that a comparison of accolades is faulty to say the least, I usually consider accolades like that to be hyperboles created to emphasize the character’s innate skill, otherwise the entire scaling you have created would be useless, since if Galen already has “perfect” level of skill, how could he improve in the first place? Regardless, t’s referring to technical skill, where Katarn (and by extension Kyp) compares rather well:DC77 (reborn) wrote:This as good an accolade as you can find for either Kyle or Durron, and Galen's physical training was far more intense than either of theirs. On paper, he's a better duellist than either, and he's all but fodder to Vader
Wizards of the coast wrote:The greatest master of lightsaber combat in the Jedi Order was known as the Battlemaster. This Jedi was the head instructor of lightsaber combat and sometimes lived at the temple training full time. Some well-known battlemasters are Cin Drallig, Kam Solusar and Kyle Katarn, who was the last to use the title. It is possible that Anoon Bondara and Sora Bulq were also Battlemasters, but there is not enough evidence to know for sure.
Your point about his training doesn’t work either, because while both Katarn and Kyp may not have had the same intense training, they have had a lot of chances to test their skills in combat situations, some of whom were against uncommon opponents (Jerec’s dark jedi, the Vong…) and in desperate situations so i fail to see how a more intense training would be enough to place Marek above either of the two.
However, here we come to the main point, Vader’s superiority to Marek, at least based on the example you provided (Kota) is strictly adheres to the force, not necessarily technical skill. Vader can ragdoll Kota yes, but we don’t know how good he is as a duelist compared to Kota, at least purely examining technical skill.
DC77 (reborn) wrote:Who, himself, is vastly beneath Shaak Ti:
“far more formidable foe” may refer to Ti’s strength in the force compared Kota’s, not necessarily her being a far more skilled opponent when it comes to overall combat skill. And even if that is the case, it’s not very impressive for Galen or Kota, since Ti’s lightsaber feats are simply lacking and unimpressive , such as being given long fight by a Magnaguard ( As even you have admitted repeatedly), which makes me further question the quote you presented for Galen’s mastery.
I agree with the rest of the scaling, but given it’s built on a flawed comparison, I’m gonna move on and present my own.
Unlike you believe, there is a potential way to get Kyp below Vader in technical skill through a comparison within the empire. et’s start from the dark side elite. Those individuals include some of Palpatine’s strongest servants:
Dark empire handbook 3 wrote:While some were merely yes-men, cronies barely fit to be footstools in the Imperial Court, others possessed tremendous strength in the Force. Coupled with maniacal lust for power, or merely psychotic, these dark side adepts were some of the most dangerous Force users in the galaxy short of the Emperor himself.
Dark empire sourcebook wrote:While none of them were permitted to advance far compared to Palpatine’s own level of power, they did become quite powerful indeed.
Which is supported by their knowledge of alchemy, a practice oted to be “suited only for masters" and for the most powerful Sith Lords (per the dark side sourcebook). Then we have Kam Solusar, a member of those, whom, after being redeemed by Luke Skywalker, experiences the usual megaKenobian!growth (or Solusarian, if you absolutely want it):
Dark empire audio drama wrote:LUKE: Kam Solusar--I give you back your life!! I give you your freedom! I give you the power that is already yours-- the power of the Jedi!!
Sound: The Force fades.
KAM: (with new strength in his voice) Skywalker.....I'm free.
Which leads him to one shot the leader of the elite, Vill Goir, overcoming both his opponent’s skill and force augmentation.
Considering what we know of the elite, i don’t think Vader would have been able to replicate this, especially considering that members of the elite are above the
(Dark side sourcebook)
While obviously Vader can dispatch those with the force, it does not help that the guards, who scale below the elite in all areas has an obvious consequence that Vader is outclassed in technical skill.
Now you may be wondering what Kyp has to do with Solusar. In regards to force power Kyp Is stated to be light-years above him per I,jedi whereas Katarn, Kyp’s equal, is stated to be the academy’s foremost battlemaster, most likely placing him above Solusar:
Dark forces saga wrote:Kyle became the Academy’s foremost Battlemaster, honing the skills of countless Jedi students, like Jaden Korr, and stopping the dark side berserker Jeng Droga.
What we’re ultimately left with is a potential scaling chain placing Kyp above Vader in sabers (not to mention some of Vader’s not-so-good which I shall mention in my next response ) and Kyp completely outclassing Vader in the force, which you have been unable to adequately disprove.
- BreakofDawnLevel Seven
Re: Darth Vader vs Kyp Durron
January 15th 2020, 11:20 am
(even if baiting HP is always fun).
Can confirm.
IGLevel Four
Re: Darth Vader vs Kyp Durron
January 15th 2020, 4:15 pm
What does Vader have anywhere near Kyp? Does Vader have Black Hole (or if you want to lowball it, moon) level TK? Does he have raw power second to none but Luke Skywalker in his era? No. And Kyp scales way above Vader in sabers as well, as Cilghal's detailed. Vader has nothing to match, kek.The lord of hunger wrote:vader
The lord of hungerLevel Two
Re: Darth Vader vs Kyp Durron
January 15th 2020, 4:17 pm
kyp durron is several sources was compared to katarn that simple fact make him lost this match badly kek
- IGLevel Four
Re: Darth Vader vs Kyp Durron
January 15th 2020, 4:21 pm
In sabers he’s comparable to Kyle. And one source says he is, and it’s an offhand comparison about how Viun Gaalan May be able to compete with them. It’s entirely possible Kyp is (say) a hundred, Gaalan is a 80, Kyle is a 70 (numbers are examples, not literal). Have you read FOTJ?
Page 1 of 2 • 1, 2
- Darth Malgus (JuS), Darth Marr (KOTFE) & Darth Thanaton (act 3) vs Darth Vader (ROTJ) & Darth Maul (TCW)
- Darth Krayt, Darth Plagueis, Darth Tyranus vs DE Luke, Darth Vader, Darth Caedus
- Darth Vader ROTJ and ROTS Obi Wan vs DOE Darth Bane and Darth Zannah
- Darth Maul, Darth Vader & Ventress vs Darth Tyranus, Darth Nox & Darth Malgus
- Darth Caedus and Kyp Durron vs Darth Krayt and Wyyrlok
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