SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Maul (ILS)

The Math of Darth Maul

Sheev only fought defensively with a training saber and didn’t want to kill Maul - but it doesn’t change the fact Maul pushed Sheev back with blows he barely deflected, and came close to killing him.

I realize then that he [Sheev] has just begun to tap into his own reserves. Mine are played out.

Maul had fought his Master many times, starting when he was little more than a child and continuing through his apprenticeship. His body bore innumerable scars from those duels—lessons in the peril of being too slow or two quick, too weak or too distracted. During Maul’s apprenticeship he had always known that Sidious had been willing to kill him. The Sith had not survived their centuries of exile by being sentimental, and a student who couldn’t stand against his Master in a mere training exercise was worse than useless—he was a waste of valuable resources better used elsewhere. But Maul had never faced his Master when he was actually trying to kill him.

The droid 11-4D can track the trajectories of blaster bolts and respond instantaneously to danger, yet, it viewed Plagueis’ movements as a blur or gust of wind.

Plagueis and Venamis’ fight would have appeared like lightning flashing through a forest, in other words, as if they were rapidly teleporting despite the rough obstacle-ridden terrain.

Plagueis smashes transparisteel.

With a kick Plagueis sends a Zabrak across a cabin snapping his spine and crushing his chest.

"Marr approached her with slow, deliberate steps, hands resting on the small of his back. Her master never rushed, always maintained an appearance of control. 'I sense a similar hunger for power in you. Do not bother denying it.'
'I see no reason to.'
In an instant, he was gone. Her nostrils flared slightly as she tried to sense his presence.
'You believe you have earned that power, but you are mistaken,' his voice thundered behind her."
―Star Wars: The Old Republic: The Price of Power

A powerful Sith Lord with a despotic temperament, Darth Lachris has never failed in war. Her successes in the Empire’s battles have brought her to Balmorra, where she faces the challenge of putting down a resistance that has remained one step ahead of the military since the fight for the planet began. Darth Lachris is sharp and wary, expecting a scheme behind every action her enemies take. Trained by Dark Council member Darth Marr, she is a warrior at heart with an embittered understanding of political necessity–and a lust for all the galaxy’s bloody pleasures. -SWTOR Codex Entry

For 600 years leading up to 54BBY, the Banite Sith undertook the Kursid rite of having the Sith Master and apprentice non-lethally defeat hundreds of Kursid warriors with force pikes. The Kursids evolved marginally in terms of tech over the years. Each repetition of this rite would become marginally more impressive.

A Banite Master and apprentice 600 years before 54BBY Plagueis can onetap hundreds without being hit. Sheev and Plagueis also did this.

"An incursion into the Arms Factory will be a monumental feat. I'm excited by the prospect of you laying waste to that place. The Republic command center is deep inside the Arms Factory, the most heavily protected installation on the planet. In order to reach Commander Rylon, you will have to make your way past all of the factory's defenses - which are considerable. Stationed inside are an estimated one thousand of the Republic's best trained soldiers. Specifically, Rylon's elite squadron is responsible for some of the most precise, improbable resistance victories on Balmorra. They're legendary. It will be a bright day on Balmorra when they are eliminated."
―Malavai Quinn (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

"It must look like anything but a targeted execution - annihilate everyone there."
―Darth Baras (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

"...the factory is under attack. Headquarters has been breached and casualties are severe. Target is carving a bloody path to this direction. Unconfirmed reports suggest it's Sith."
―Captian Eligyn (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

To the clamorous beating of drums and the wailing of the onlookers, the warriors brandished their weapons, raised a deafening war cry, and attacked. A nod from Plagueis, and the two Sith sped across the plain to meet them, flying among them like wraiths, evading arrows, gleaming spear tips, and blows from battle-axes, going one against one, two, or three, but felling opponent after opponent with taps from the force pikes, until among the hundreds of jerking, twitching bodies sprawled on the rough ground, only one was left standing. That was when Plagueis tossed aside the stun pike and ignited his crimson blade, and a collective lament rose from the crowds on the hillsides.

Plagueis and Sheev took turns orbiting and defending eachother as they deflected omnidirectional blaster fire from a series of concentric rings of droids numbering 200. The droids were of a wide variety of models, boasting a wide variety of blaster types.

Also, in his journal, Maul states he was "only beginning to taste the dark power of a Sith" shortly after this fight (still at the age of 17).

Maul spent any free time he had meditating and training, which always left him feeling stronger than before.

Maul in his fight with Jinn and Kenobi, up to that point, had never fought better. His particular hatred for the Jedi drove him further, but even without that, he was better than he ever was before.

Even at the climax of the battle he seemed “fresh as ever” - Maul can summon more power in TPM, without tapping deeply into his reserves, than at any point prior including when he “nearly bested” 37BBY Sheev, back when he was “only beginning to taste the dark power of a Sith.”

Darth Maul was a warrior in his prime, never to be any better, his powers at their apex.

In TCW, Sheev fought harder against Maul than ever before (“But Maul had never faced his Master when he was actually trying to kill him.”) Yet Maul is able to respond to his blows, and no mention is made of Sheev being too fast to follow or track at this stage.

Well, that was definitely one of our biggest challenges, Maul and Savage versus Sidious, because we wanted to have an epic lightsaber fight. We hadn’t really had a big one in awhile, and I really thought this is our chance to show everyone why Sidious is the Sith Lord. Why no one can compete with this guy.

At the end of the day, with Sidious, nobody was really going to be able to touch him. He had to be the strongest, most dangerous guy. And you could see at a certain point, he just puts his lightsabers away at the end of the fight and says, “I’m done with this,” and goes in and mauls Maul, so to speak.

Arcann is not doing shit with TK. He lacks the skill to create the necessary opening in Maul’s guard and he lacks the power to brute force Maul’s defences. Maul is more skilled and more powerful than Arcann, so he could even crush Arcann’s windpipe ala Obi-Wan if he doesn’t gut him first.

Skillz tacitly conceded depth and breadth of Force knowledge, training quality, lightsaber skill and accolades of any description to TPM Maul without resistance by ignoring my first post. He made his methodology clear:

The fact skillz went as far as to suggest Arcann would shit on Maul is laughable. With all of the feats/scaling for Venamis, Tenebrous, Plagueis and Sheev outlined, Maul pushing back and nearly killing 37BBY!Sheev before a huge increase in power by TPM, and another profound increase by TCW wherein he performed admirably against CW Sheev… this is simply better than anything you could possibly outline for Arcann.

Rebuttals to Rebuttals

There is no reason to doubt the veracity of the "Fact" Files, which per the article I linked are said to contain "Facts" and "Information". So this argument without evidence is dismissed.

1. It’s an assumption that Dooku had "an aptitude of the force far superior to that of Maul"
2. Dooku "rapidly developing his abilities" was attributed to what Sheev taught him, per earlier quotes. Dooku having prerequisite attributes which enhanced the rate at which he grew is conjecture.
3. The Banites delved into all aspects of the Force including the Jedi arts, and Maul was trained by Sheev to push his "Force abilities to the extreme.", to be "strong in every way", trained in "all forms of the Sith arts"/"all types of Sith ways"/"trained in [Sidious'] likeness" and as a legitimate Banite Sith who could temporarily break the Rule of Two. The idea Maul’s "depth of knowledge" is not "even approaching that of Dooku" then, is laughable.

Character opinions are fallible, so there is no proof HoT is superior to every Jedi, and you didn’t show feats for any of these Jedi.

With Grand Master Satele Shan's support, Master Braga assembles a strike team of the strongest and most resolute Jedi in the order. Their goal is to pinpoint the Emperor's hidden fortress, capture the Sith leader alive, and turn him to the light side. The Jedi do not realize that they have underestimated the true extent of the Emperor's power. It is an error that will cost them dearly.
From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

I feel...so much better. But why do you look so weak? What did you do?

I shielded you from the person who was making you ill, but it took some of my strength. -Yuon Par and Barsen’thor

You’ve saved me, at great cost to yourself. I can feel it.

I feel...better. Much better. Wait, you, you--you look pale. Are you alright?

I don’t understand. My mind is clear again, and you’re...weak.

There are risks. For one, the shielding you gave me on Coruscant will be severed. I don’t know what will happen then. It’s possible I could die once your shield is gone.

”This illness you’ve described--it’s more like a kind of mind control.”

“How could anyone control the mind of such a powerful jedi?"

“Well, you could ask…[the Noetikon of Secrets]” -Barsen’thor and Nomi Sunrider

See how Yuon’s will crumbles before mine. Fitting, that two of my enemies will destroy each other -Lord Vivicar

The plague binds these masters to me. Hundreds of them. The heart and soul of your order.

This battle was decided before you stepped aboard.

I’m tired of your delusions, explain yourself.

My plague isn’t just a disease. It siphons power from its victims. With the proper rituals, that power can be channeled. Soon, the combined strength of your Masters will make me the most powerful force adept who has ever lived! -Lord Vivicar and Barsen’thor, End of Act 1

Just because for a time they fought to a “standstill” does not mean they are equals, any more than this quote proves Jinn and Maul were equal...Scourge taking a knee after the fight proves he lost.

“More guards will come. Shall we go before they arrive?”

“Free Master Tol Braga and my fellow Jedi, and I’ll consider it.”

“If they were here, I would have liberated them as well. I could have killed you on Quesh, had I wanted. Do you never wonder why I hesitated? I have waited over three hundred years to see the face that came to me in a vision. Your face.”

“You could’ve told me this on Quesh, or in your master’s fortress.” -Lord Scourge and HoT, end of Act 2

You gave zero feats for Scourge.

This doesn’t stack up to Maul, not even close.

Also, Vitiate’s skills as a fighter are woeful, which no doubt helped the HoT win the fight aside from a simple power comparison.

HoT only needed to be strong enough to resist Vitiate’s powers and close the gap, which really says nothing about the HoT’s abilities outside of his ability to do just that.

"We need to watch one another closely. If Master Katarn could be swayed, then any of us could. Not just Vestara.”

Luke stood for a moment, his eyes and other senses searching the landscape. “Anyone sense anything?”
Ben extended himself in the Force, both opening himself to the vile sensation of the dark side and utilizing his senses—even smell, temporarily at least—to gather what information he could.
“Other than the obvious, which is a metric ton of dark-side energy, I can’t sense anything,” Jaina said.

“It’s…so strong,” Vestara breathed. Ben glanced over at her. Her brown eyes were wide, and her voice was a mixture of horror and attraction.
“Vestara,” Luke said, sharply but not angrily, and she blinked as if coming out of a daze. “Do you sense any signs of the Sith or Abeloth?”
She shook her head, looking more like her usual alert self. “No. That nexus pretty much drowns out anything else.”

Luke and Jaina were fighting back-to-back. The Sith attacking them had two advantages. One was the fact that they outnumbered the two Jedi. The second was that they were being reinforced by the emanations of the dark-side nexus within the temple. It surged forth like psychic sewage, clogging the Jedi’s reflexes as it fueled their enemies.

The ultimate non-Force sensitive fighters in the Empire serve the Emperor and the Emperor alone. Although most citizens know them as protectors of the Sith Academy on Korriban and the sanctum of the Citadel on Dromund Kaas, the guardsmen’s mandate takes them wherever the Emperor requires. Even the Dark Council has neither control nor oversight of the guard’s activities. Clad in blood-red robes and armor, Imperial Guardsmen serve for life. Chosen for duty and initiated through deadly tests and traditions, those too old for active duty become instructors for the next generation until their skills deteriorate to the point where they are inevitably slain by a new recruit during training. Fanatic in loyalty and unmatched in martial skill, even a lone Imperial Guard is a formidable opponent capable of standing toe-to-toe with a Jedi… or a Sith, should the occasion arise. -SWTOR Codex

Before the Emperor’s apparent demise, the Empire’s greatest non-Force-sensitive combatants were selected for the Imperial Guard to serve and defend the Emperor himself. But being selected and developing into a guardsman were two different matters entirely. The Emperor chose worlds strong in the dark side for his academies–locations where his influence was strongest, where he could form a bond with his would-be guardsmen. In these academies, the candidates would undergo a relentless, merciless training regimen that included regularly scheduled battles to the death. Regardless of what kind of person entered an Imperial Guard academy, if they survived they would emerge as a honed-to-perfection killing machine molded to the Emperor’s will.-SWTOR Codex

You dissipated your energies saving the weak. There are consequences. -Vitiate

You gave the Emperor time to gather his strength. We are all fortunate to be alive. -Lord Scourge

I do not give a shit about Scourge’s opinion on HoT’s potential, and you can’t prove how much of it is actualised. Nothing in my first post mentioned Maul’s potential and also you yourself disparaged the idea that potential is a worthwhile metric to use - everything you just said is meaningless per both our standards.

I see no reason to think the HoT is "every bit the prodigy that Darth Maul is", your unsourced tangent noted.Darth Maul was selected and trained by Sheev to be an heir to the Banites, and unlike Scourge, Sheev had the ability to judge potential with more accuracy than the "crude" midichlorian tester which the Jedi used. He knew Maul was strong enough to inherit his mantle and trained him accordingly. Darth Bane and Darth Venamis, whose feats I can/have detailed at length, were said by Plagueis to be "anachronisms", so let’s just say that even if we want to play the "potential" game, which my argument is not reliant on, Maul would still win easily.

Time gaps do not indicate growth. You have not given a source for any on the HoT’s part. Him being a battlemaster is an accolade on par with titans such as Drallig, Katarn and Kas’im, so there’s that?

It was about healing a scar you’ve almost forgotten. One that still aches inside you.

The Emperor.

You were under his control. His darkness soaked through to your spirit. When we freed you, you pushed the memories of his training down deep. I can bring those memories back. You’re strong enough to handle them; let the Light cure them and make you whole. -Orgus Din and HoT, Rishi

My memories of that time are power. That power is my right and my weapon. I claim it. -HoT, Rishi

Your claim: “Emperor Vitiate focused all his power in one vessel, remotely, and this possessed host had a level of power worth giving a shit about”

Your evidence: Conjecture based on what Lana wanted HoT to do, the asinine idea that Vitiate focusing on an entire city somehow limits his attention to one host, and the implication that Vitiate had no other pawns to possess or objectives to split his attention other than the dozen or so soldiers that ran into the room with Surro? And the unsupported assumption that Vitiate was channelling a relevant amount of his undivided power into this vessel? Why is it not possible that Vitiate did not or could not manifest even close to his full power in this vessel? We do not know how powerful the Surro vessel was and you have no way to quantify its power.

With the help of Lana Beniko and Theron Shan, you have freed Master Surro of the former Sith Emperor's hold, U]and appear to have severed his tie to the Imperial and Republic forces in and around New Adasta.

However, a war still rages and the former Emperor is not yet defeated. -SWTOR Codex

Anything here that isn’t sourced is dismissed. If Vitiate is conjuring hordes of monoliths, this hurts your conjecture that he gave undivided focus when fighting through Surro.

Extremely strong, next to impossible to kill. The one you just defeated is the smallest we’ve come across.

The man now called Vitiate by those who once served him was not strong enough to usurp all life on Yavin 4 after his reawakening. However, he did gain power enough to flee the jungle moon and survive. Now that he has found in Ziost a suitable target to replenish himself--now that he appears to grow more powerful by the hour--what now? When will his unforgiving depletion of Ziost end? And when it does end, what fate will befall the rest of the galaxy?

The syntax does not necessitate that the Outlander is Valk’s "most powerful opponent [ever]", it just says that he is his most powerful opponent. Also the Outlander can be a non-Force user, which begs the question what it means by "most powerful" - certainly not Force power.

Source for this growth? Also, Arcann chaining Force attacks into combat and finding openings is not the same as penetrating one’s Force defences outright, and by the end of a losing duel where one’s reserves are wearing thin it becomes easier to penetrate those defences. Arcann did not "casually" pull the Outlander onto his blade, he did so after wearing him down.

It’s good that you plan to explain properly why we should care about Arcann, because from where I’m sitting, I don’t see how his skill with blocking lightning is going to help him survive against Maul, who never chooses to employ the ability.

Revan's raw power in the Force bends Nyriss' Sith lightning back at her, utterly destroying the Sith Lord.
Source: The Essential Reader’s Companion

Easy, Easy. Your body went through quite the ordeal. We weren’t sure you were ever going to wake up.

Weird thing is we couldn’t find a scratch on you, not even inside.

I used Valkorion’s power to fight Arcann. It was...stressful. -Lana, Koth, Outlander; KOTFE Chapter 8

Proof?

LadyKulvax wrote:

The Cosmic Force wrote:I can't. Skillz won't post and ILS will win by default.