How do all the known holocrons stack against each other?

WalkingInCircles wrote:

Yes, because that's the only incarnation of Vitiate that Revan is more powerful than. Riiight. It's not like Revan>>>>>Act 3 HoT>Act 3 Vitiate>>>Comatose Vitiate or anything.

Your sarcasm pretty much fails when I already mentioned this. 

It's not like Vitiate spent 300 years trying to Telepathically dominate Revan's mind.

...Except he didn't. He wasn't just sitting on a chair constantly trying to break Revan's mind, lol. He was trying to build Zakuul throughout those 300 years. 

Unsuccessfully, I might add.

Even a preoccupied Vitiate was about to break Revan's mind after 300 years despite Meetra's help. 

It's not like Vitiate attempted to break Revan's mind in two because of his immense power when whole.

He literally wanted to turn Revan back to the dark side, not split his power. The hell is this based on? Vitiate's intentions during Revan's imprisonment were to turn him back into Darth Revan and to draw upon his connection to the light side, that's it.


P.S: Your sarcasm really needs work.

You are completely ignoring the fact that the war with Vitiate in Revan's mind was described as "never ending". You are also ignoring the fact that it wasn't just Vitiate and the Dread Masters, it was also the machine that Revan was hooked up to that was constantly draining his energy into Vitiate even when Vitiate was concentrating on other things. The only thing Meetra did was help to replenish some of Revan's reserves (and what she did was compared to a "trickle"), she didn't fight the mental war with him. So in other words, whenever Vitiate wasn't concentrating all his focus on Revan, he was still draining his energy. So of course Revan was going to burn out when he isn't given the chance to rest, and Vitiate is not only given the chance to rest (and have help) he is actively stealing Revan's energy via the bond and the machine.

So what are you saying? He spent a couple of minutes? A few years? 299.5 years? Be specific with what you're trying to say instead of painting a character's feats in broad strokes.

If you want me to speculate on the cumulative amount of time Vitiate was actively attempting to TP Revan, then I think at least several years would be a safe low end estimate. Of course this very conservative estimate is still sufficient to demonstrate parity imo.

Vitiate still remained pretty active in the Sith Empire:


After the Great Hyperspace War, the Sith Emperor had successfully led his people to the sanctuary of Dromund Kaas. Having re-established the Empire there, he slowly withdrew from public life, leaving the Empire's administration to his Dark Council.

At first the Dark Council was subservient to the Emperor. But as centuries passed and the Emperor remained withdrawn, the Dark Council became more independent, believing he was weakening. When the council discovered the Emperor was planning to invade the Republic, there was angry dissent. Naga Sadow's failed invasion of the Republic a millennium before had almost destroyed the Empire; some believed it would be madness to repeat his mistake.

Several of the Dark Council's members decided to depose the Emperor before he led them to destruction. But the Emperor learned of their intentions and the entire Dark Council, loyalists and dissenters alike, was purged. The price of disobedience made clear, a new council was chosen and the Emperor's plans proceeded.

You do realize that in the very same source you provided, Vitiate is stated to delegate administrative authority to the DC and then basically becomes a recluse after the empire's creation.

Which he didn't do. Even the novel confirms he was distant several times.

Well let's look at what the novel says:

And Revan knew something the Emperor did not. The connection between
them went both ways. There were brief moments—times when the Emperor was
intently focused on something else—when he could subvert their relationship by
planting seeds in the Emperor’s thoughts.


This doesn't seem to imply Vitiate was only TPing Revan in his spare time. In fact this seems to imply that Vitiate was focused on Revan for the majority of the time.

I think you overestimate Revan's importance. Vitiate wanted him back as Darth Revan, yes, but he wasn't even remotely crucial to his short-term or long-term plans.

You do realize that Zakuul was merely a glorified social experiment and Vitiate's main objective pre ziost was the galaxy drain. Revan was indeed crucial to this because information about the Republic's strengths and weaknesses, as well as how much the republic knew about Vitiate and the Sith empire are all potentially ridiculously valuable for Vitiate's plan. So yes Revan is that important to Vitiate.

Mate, literally the entire point of Zakuul was that Vitiate stopped giving a flying crap about the Sith Empire. He even derides and casts aside everything to do with the Sith, calling the empire a "failed experiment". What happened there was of no concern to him by the time he'd fully established the Eternal Empire. Revan thought Vitiate was still interested in just conquering the Republic, not in either A) consuming the galaxy, or B) founding a new empire and abandoning his past.

see above.

The Dread Masters fought throughout the Great Galactic War (which was about 30 years long) and were imprisoned for another 11-15 years before the Cold War ended. And the Dread Masters also failed to dominate the Emperor's Wrath or Darth Nox long before their prime, so...

You're missing the point. If Vitiate was far beyond Revan, enlisting the DM wouldn't have been deemed necessary for Vitiate to break Revan. The fact that Vitiate chose to do so, implies that Vitiate was having difficulties doing so on his own. This is backed by the fact that Vitiate had been completely unsuccessful for centuries prior.

So he shares parity with a comatose, brink of death Vitiate who was far weaker than ever before while Revan was at his strongest ever. Big whoop, lol. 

Hmm. Let's use some logic shall we. We are both well aware of this scaling: SOR Revan>>>>SOR HOT> Act 3 HOT>Act 3 Vitiate>>>Comatose Vitiate. So we both should be able to accept that Revan is leagues beyond comatose Vitiate. We also know that the writers are aware of power difference since Hall Hood has stated that Vitiate was all but annihilated(immensely weakened) by the HoT in act 3, and that they have Revan as an 8 man boss, of which a more powerful incarnation of the HoT is included. So when we look at that statement, it is illogical to assume that it was referring to comatose Vitiate. It is also illogical to imagine it was referring to a Vitiate of similar power to his act 3 incarnation. Considering the enormous superiority Revan has over the HoT, the only logical conclusion we can make is that the statement is at the very least referring to Vitiate in some semblance of his full power. 

Ok? Which proves...what, exactly? It didn't weaken him power wise.

Why yes you're absolutely right. I don't know what I was thinking when I believed Revan was weakened as a result of his mind splitting in two. Especially when statements like "Two pieces working separately aren't nearly as good as one whole, working together" or The Emperor split you apart, because you were strongest when you were together." exist.


@WalkinginCircles

@KingofBlades

Well said.

Here is another quote for you "Revan could feel the Emperor feeding on him, drawing on his power to sate his endless hunger. Though the two were physically separated by a dozen parsecs, there was still an unbreakable mental link, fashioned by the Emperor and sustained by the infernal machines powering the cell".

Even when Vitiate wasn't concentrating on Revan, he was stealing Revan's strength giving Revan no chance to rest.

@ KingofBlades

Also here is a quote supporting the scaling:

"If you may not know, in Shadow of Revan, we launched what is definitely the most difficult operation boss we ever put into our game - Revan himself. In fact, he is so hard that to this day, five months later, very few guilds in the world have even gotten to him, nevertheless even beaten him. It's a big deal to take down Revan."- Eric Musco

for the war part- i dont think i need to mention the fact that his army was likely better than dooku's right? it was composed to dark jedi after all. and idk how the wars went of course, but dooku was facing a likely much worse enemy than revan ever did.

i never said revan wasnt being held back by his masters. for one, thats one of the reason he sought so many teachers (among other things). the more the better, and if one of them was unwilling, he always had another. and u yourself said to me that dooku learned so much stuff already that he had to go out and search for new info. idk how much often he did this, but if he had been doing so for years before TPM, he mustve seen his fair amount of shit.

i wasnt talking about drain. his drain, and being a wound makes him extremely effective against pretty much all other force users- i just meant pure power. iirc, he did casually force push her around, but i could be wrong.

i suppose u might be right about plagueis. say, i heard from a friend that plagueis has a statement in his book about being the fastest sith ever. have u ever heard of anything like that? i dont have the book, so i cant check for myself.

i mean, gean was an apprentice, and she had likely not finished her training, so what she mightve considered to be half, wouldve very likely been way inaccurate, since she didnt know exactly how much there even was in the first place., in my opinion.

palpatine says it to himself, after this, when anakin wasnt there anymore. well, its either his thoughts, or the narrator. he was only even to dooku somewhere between TCW show, and the ROTS movie. in TCW, he was constantly getting clapped, and never beat him in skill, but by strength, WHILE using the dark side; in ROTS, he also had speed on his side too, so the skill gap isnt that big either.

force storm is weird, since its technically a really old power, that only powerful beings could use. if thats the case, then how did some ancient, fodder sith to palps even learn about it, or discover it? we know that the previous form to it is maelstrom, and only malgus+ lvl force users could use it, so like, fucking plot hole lol. and sorry, but i still dont see it. i still think that ROTS sheev ~ valk, tbh. ziost is impressive of course, but hasnt nihilus done something similar by just speaking? his power is pretty fodder to top tiers. and sidious by that time has learned almost force powers ever. i could get u the quote for that. all that he learned after this was newly found stuff.

i never said malgus is weak, but i dont see him being stronger than dooku. for one, aryn is not stronger at all than TCW anakin, much less TCW maul, whom dooku is more than likely stronger than as well. and i agree, malgus is like the second tankiest fucker aside from vader, easy.

i think his best statement is meetra's, when she says he is the strongest being she met or something, and this was very pre prime, i believe. 

i heard that he is less skilled than meetra, and i can believe that imo, but i still think he might one of the top 7 ish martial artists in the verse, if we could everything- lightsaber dueling, other weapons, blasters, hand to hand, etc. i dont dislike him, but i dont like him either, im just neutral tbh hahaha

oh yeah, btw, u seem to have read a lot of the novels, and i wanted in ur help in how to scale vader's progress.

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:for the war part- i dont think i need to mention the fact that his army was likely better than dooku's right? it was composed to dark jedi after all. and idk how the wars went of course, but dooku was facing a likely much worse enemy than revan ever did.

If anything what Revan did was more impressive than what Dooku did. He started the war against the Mandalorians with only half the Jedi Order and a failing Republic. The dark Jedi were just what were left at the end of a long, grueling war.

And honestly the Mandalorians at their prime would've wiped out the Separatists. IMO. Considering how a rag tag group of Mandalorians actually posed a threat to the Palpatine's Empire a couple of times, the Mandalorians in their prime when they trained all the time and had an empire of warriors would've stood a good chance. This was the time in which they had things like Basilisk War droids and whatnot, not to mention they weren't reduced to just the human Mandalorians. They had many, many species including (again) the Taung.

Dooku had an army of droid that outnumbered his enemy many times over. By the end of the Clone Wars there were quintillions of droids. He was going to win even if he just disappeared and didn't bother to command at all. That isn't to say that he didn't accomplish a lot during the war, just that I would've been surprised if the Separatists WEREN'T with or without Dooku.

i heard from a friend that plagueis has a statement in his book about being the fastest sith ever

Plagueis is definitely up there but Palpatine was moving so fast in (DE? I think?) that Leia was describing his motion in nanoseconds (this could very well be hyperbole though). Of course before then Palpatine's speed would've been lower, as I said he got amped up crazy high in NJO.

Honestly speed is such a hard thing to judge.

The other difference is that just because someone can move their arms super fast to block light saber strikes etc, it doesn't mean that they are physically fast in the way that Plagueis and Palpatine were (being that Plagueis wasn't just able to move his lightsaber quickly, he was able to run so fast he looked like a blur).

i mean, gean was an apprentice, and she had likely not finished her training, so what she mightve considered to be half, wouldve very likely been way inaccurate, since she didnt know exactly how much there even was in the first place., in my opinion.

That is true but she lived there as well. She knew what his archives looked like, so even if she didn't know exactly what was missing she could still eye ball it and see that more than half was.

palpatine says it to himself, after this, when anakin wasnt there anymore. 

Once again this is about Palpatine finding himself an apprentice to surpass him. That's what made Luke appeal to him so much, it was his second chance to get an apprentice that hadn't been reduced to a shadow.

And again, that quote I shared with you was from the Attack of the Clones novelization, where we quite clearly see that Anakin was matching Dooku and even making him "dodge" more than parry. This was also before he got the second lightsaber, and it wasn't him going crazy with anger or anything.

The only thing separating them was Dooku's skill. He was able to use his experience to keep up, and outlast Anakin. But that was because Anakin didn't know how to pace himself, not because he wasn't matching Dooku (without being amped, btw).

force storm is weird, since its technically a really old power, that only powerful beings could use. if thats the case, then how did some ancient, fodder sith to palps even learn about it, or discover it?

There are multiple types of Force storm (or rather the term Force storm is used to cover a few different abilities), which complicates the issue. The type that Sidious was using was a several kilometer wide attack. Vitiate used a more long term version to cover all of Dromund Kaas in perpetual storms. It is an expression of power, but there were large scale attacks that were contained within Revan's holocron that were like it, such as the Thought Bomb. And that was just one of the ones that Bane could wrap his head around to teach to others, there were many more that it was said that Bane couldn't, ones that Revan learned from studying the Ancient Sith. So it is very possible that Sidious had at least some information dating back to the same Sith Empire that Vitiate was originally born into.

ziost is impressive of course, but hasnt nihilus done something similar by just speaking?

Not what Vitiate/Valkorion were doing. What Nihilus did was essentially feeding upon living beings.

What Vitiate did wasn't just to consume the life ON the planet. He consumed the actual Force itself surrounding the planet (for example, Nathema), so that it was literally a place without the Force.

Nihilus was created by the same event that damaged Meetra and caused Malachor V to become a wound in the Force. So lets take a look at  Malachor vs Nathema. (a wound vs the absence of the Force)

"(Meetra) had visited Malachor V years after the cataclysm of the mass-shadow generator. Traversing its surface have been agony. Mentally, she had still sensed the anguish of all who had lost their lives there. Physically, the intense gravity of the world had held her in its crushing grip, leeaving her gasping for breath. It had been the most awful and horrific experience of her life...until now. On Malachor she'd felt the echoes of unimaginable pain and suffering- but at least she'd felt something. Here on Nathema, there was only a cold emptiness. It was unnatural; abhorrent. On Malachor she had felt the echo of great destruction; here there was only the unbearable void of annihilation".

What Vitiate does is completely remove the Force from a world. "The events of Malachor had left a mark on the Force; a wound that would not heal. Here, however, the Force was simply...gone. It was as if someone had ripped it away, leaving only an empty void behind".

And yeah Palpatine knew a lot. But Valkorion knew things that weren't even available in Sidious' time, and again its not just about knowledge. Its about the power behind the knowledge.

i never said malgus is weak, but i dont see him being stronger than dooku. for one, aryn is not stronger at all than TCW anakin, much less TCW maul, whom dooku is more than likely stronger than as well. and i agree, malgus is like the second tankiest fucker aside from vader, easy.

You comparing Aryn to TCW Anakin kinda highlights my point. Malgus casually used so much power in his lightning she couldn't hold on to her saber or deflect it, even while prepared and trying. Vs Dooku, whose lightning was easily absorbed by Obi Wan's lightsaber and Ventress' lightsaber.

But as I said, it would be 50 50. Malgus has the brute strength and a bit more raw power, Dooku has skill and speed.

i heard that he is less skilled than meetra, and i can believe that imo,

Actually he is considered to be well above Meetra both in sabers and in hand to hand. This comes from developer statements as well as people like Leland Chee backing up assessments of stats etc.

Plus she really doesn't have the precog that he does, or the speed.

And I know I just riled up some Meetra fan with what I just said lol.

i dont dislike him, but i dont like him either, im just neutral

All I can ask for

i didnt mean battles, i meant the all out war. the mandalorions would lose to the republic, maybe even without the jedi. the jedi by themselves would also beat the mandalorions, imo, depending on how u look at it. albeit, i suppose u might right on half of this, since dooku planned this for a long time before it even started, while being smarter than 99.99% (im stealing ur number hahaha) of his enemies lol... the mandalorions posing a threat to the empire is another one of those plot devices. vader by himself has wiped out squadrons in one go so often its not even impressive anymore, while the fodder inquisitors (as in, the weaker of the inquisitors) could and would kill jedi on a daily basis (the one that survived order 66 no less, who are said to be considerably stronger than ur normal jedi, who can take on whol troops by themselves at times). considering the fact that he has a group of prophesiers in his army (so him getting surprised by anything is the biggest BS ever, but ok), super genius strategists (i dont think i need to name anybody here), and more or less the strongest force users at his command, that shouldve been a stomp. not to mention the better weapons, ships, and numbers.

the thing im talking about is direct and specific to him, as if he were to say "im the fastest sith ever" or something along those lines. does something like this ever come up in the novel? cuz when he mentioned it, it was the first i heard of it

thats also pretty inconsistent. we have seen dooku take on both anakin and obi wan in TCW, who were MUCH stronger and skilled than in AOTC (anakin more so than obi wan, but u get the point lol), and semi destroy them once or twice, and even beat dark side anakin once or twice, while slightly holding back too (idk how to explain this well enough, but im sure u know that dooku was told to never kill anakin, nor to severely hurt him, not to mention the fact that he was cocky as shit, so he never used his full power on anakin until ROTS, i believe). we have also seen dooku fodderize sora bulq before (he was faster and stronger, which obviously helped, but u get the point lol), and ventress while poisoned and blinded, alongside two other nightsisters. arryn isnt on the lvl of those three as far as skill goes at all, and she gave malgus a good fight. dooku might low key destroy malgus in a skill contest if we are talking about pre prime malgus. prime malgus is a completely different thing. i dont think he is as good as sora, but he should be as good as ventress. arryn might be equal to base TCW anakin, who dooku has also fodderized in the force too. hell, ventress would give arryn a good fight imo. idk about arryn's pure power, but she hasnt shown anything that a weaker anakin and obi wan havent done better for themselves. plus, now that u mention, malgus isnt physically stronger than dooku at all. the guy is stronger than greivous for one, has overpowered kenobi many times, and kicked him hard enough to almost break his bones, which are said to as hard as a ships hull, iirc. malgus has stamina, but dooku's skill certainly makes ups for it. as for pure power, dooku doenst have that many showings, but him completely overpowering TCW anakin, ventress, and obi wan certainly puts on malgus' lvl. sorry for the essay lmaooooo

ah, i didnt know valk used the same power. i thought it was something different. thats cool man... eh, idk man, sheev went to korriban himself in search of power and knowledge, and he clearly found some shit. idk about his ancient sith knowledge, but he should have something close to what valk has. add all the other stuff (tons of jedi shit, as in, tons) and i still put him at around 50%- 75% more than what valk has.

oh ok ok, so its somewhat different. nihilus killed living beings, and absorbed their life/force, while valk did this, but also to just the force in the air, and shit like that. i understand... i mean, sheev has bane's holocron, which by itself already has shit that we know valk hasnt seen before. its not a whole huge lot, but the quality if pretty damn high.

that's also inconsistent. we have seen lightsabers tank worse shit than malgus' casual lightning, but hers just get totally fucked over? like, huh? hell, mace's could semi tank sheev's lightning at almost full power, but hers just get totally 'wrecked' for the lack of a better word. its quite weird. mace wasnt amping the sword in any manner, and even then, the shield he put up was only around his body, i believe.

... i also heard mine from a developer lol, and i meant skill only. idk why, but i like her. i think its cuz she isnt whiny, imo. she's pretty human and what not, but when she knows she has to do the due, the forces herself to do it. i respect that. for example, i like obi wan cuz of that too. same reason why i like TCW maul, but not TPM maul, who was a cocky fucker lol

u should help me do a vader and revan scaling chain, tbh.

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:the thing im talking about is direct and specific to him, as if he were to say "im the fastest sith ever" or something along those lines. does something like this ever come up in the novel? cuz when he mentioned it, it was the first i heard of it

Not that I remember, but if it did I would disregard it as self hype.

thats also pretty inconsistent. we have seen dooku take on both anakin and obi wan in TCW, who were MUCH stronger and skilled than in AOTC 

That is partially Saturday morning cartoon syndrome. Can't have the villain actually lose.

We also see Anakin hold his own in a number of fights as well.

im sure u know that dooku was told to never kill anakin, nor to severely hurt him, not to mention the fact that he was cocky as shit, so he never used his full power on anakin until ROTS, i believe

That doesn't mean that there weren't times where Dooku was shocked at Anakin's speed, etc or having to fight hard to keep up. And we also can use scaling, cause we know that Anakin performed better against Dooku than Obi Wan did and as I highlighted in my last response the gap between Obi Wan and Dooku was mostly skill with a bit of speed (and Dooku being far stronger in the Force). We also see some of Dooku's inner thoughts in the novelization that reveal he was legitimately trying to keep up with Anakin at times. Yes, Dooku won and yes, he could've won even faster if he tried his hardest, but the gap between Dooku and Anakin really isn't that big in AotC.

malgus isnt physically stronger than dooku at all. the guy is stronger than greivous for one

What? Malgus is like Savage Opress x10. In fact, I can't really think of many people at all that are physically stronger than Malgus. Usually when Dooku beat people it was through skill and deflection, not raw strength. Including Grievous (who almost beat Dooku several times just through raw strength)

Raw strength is actually one of Dooku's weaknesses. He's no slouch but heck I wouldn't even say Anakin is physically stronger than Malgus (again, physically. Not Force wise).

The only reason why I didn't include any brute strength quotes regarding Malgus was because I assumed you would know about his overwhelming brute force lol.

"Malgus spun into a high, Force-augmented kick that hit Zallow in the chest and sent him flying backward ten meters."- Deceived

"He ducked under a slash from the male, lunged forward, and took the Jedi by the throat. He lifted him from his feet and held him suspended in the air, gagging. The Jedi’s brown eyes showed no fear, but did show pain. Malgus roared, squeezed hard, then dropped the body and stood over it"- Deceived

"He vented his rage in a continuous roar as he unleashed a furious series of blows: an overhand slash that Adraas parried; a low stab that Adraas barely sidestepped; a side kick that connected to Adraas's side, broke ribs, and flung Adraas fully across the narrow axis of the hall. He crashed into a column and the impact split it as would lightning a tree."- Deceived

"In the hall outside, he slammed a fist down on the secretary’s desk, putting a crack on the marble top."- Deceived

He also face tanks missiles on a regular basis.

sheev went to korriban himself in search of power and knowledge

Yeah and Vitiate literally had access to all the knowledge of the Ancient Sith. He killed basically all the ones that were left, he had access to everything. Honestly when it comes to knowledge I'd more than say Vitiate had more knowledge than Palpatine. He had 1300 years with unlimited access to basically everything that the Sith had been accumulating since the days of Adas' Sith Empire over 25,000 years BBY.

sheev has bane's holocron, which by itself already has shit that we know valk hasnt seen before. its not a whole huge lot, but the quality if pretty damn high.

Comparing Bane's knowledge to Vitiate's is like comparing a high school football player to the NFL.

that's also inconsistent. we have seen lightsabers tank worse shit than malgus' casual lightning, but hers just get totally fucked over? like, huh? hell, mace's could semi tank sheev's lightning at almost full power

That's the thing though. It shows just how much Force energy Malgus could summon on a dime, its not inconsistent.

Two things about Mace vs Palpatine
1) Palpatine was toying with Mace. Even in canon he was playing up the "help me I'm an old man" bit and in the EU it was confirmed that Palpatine was playing.
2) Vaapad was helping him to deal with what Palpatine WAS putting out, and event then we are told that Mace's lightsaber blade was being bent back towards his face.

When Palpatine stopped messing around, we see him disarm YODA (who has comparable Force power) with his lightning.

i like her. i think its cuz she isnt whiny, imo. 

I like Meetra too. I wish she hadn't been reduced to a Force ghost.

But no, Meetra wasn't comparable in combat. Beyond comments from various people such as that "Revan would kick the Exile's ass" in sabers (this is referring to KOTOR Revan too), we also have Revan being stated to be the best lightsaber wielder of his time, as well as having better feats (not even taking into account later canon). Plus even in his way way pre prime version he scales off Malak, who would also beat Meetra in sabers.

for example, i like obi wan cuz of that too. same reason why i like TCW maul, 

You wanna know the real reason I love Revan? Idk if you've played the first game, but Revan is a smart ass. I love the sort of sarcastic comments that people like him and Obi Wan make (Obi Wan is one of my favorite characters, tied with Siri). And I love TCW Maul as well.

hehe. meatbag. he.

u should help me do a vader and revan scaling chain, tbh.

Vader dies.
Naw, I'm jk. Kind of.

But seriously if you want to get into Revan vs Vader both DarthAnt66 and Azmonger are doing a far better job of debating than I ever could.
https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t49-ss-super-fight-iii-darth-vader-azronger-vs-revan-darthant66

ok ok, thanks. i mean, it would be cool if he did have the accolade tho. i heard that his species is naturally far faster than any human can be, and he is in turn, an athlete, who can use some extremely high end for augmentation. 

anakin consistently holds his own, but dooku beating anakin by himself, anakin and obi wan, obi wan by himself, ventress, savage, sora bulq, tholme, vos, any of his apprentices who were often evenly matched with AOTC anakin, quite easily happens wayyyy too often for it be 'saturday morning sindrome'. like, i think, if we count how many times he has been beaten, it wouldve been 2 times (the second one in D.R. is weird, but ill count it regardless), by yoda, 2 times by anakin (maybe three, if im not forgetting something), and then by anakin again in ROTS, by both his base, and by his dark side self, and then by vos 1 time. im listing what we see btw, and by loss, i mean, as in obvious loss but not like, "oh no im lost, boo hoo", if u get what i meant. thats like, 8 losses overall from what i can. he has beaten anakin like 1 times in AOTC, 3 times in TCW, tholme 2 times i think, bulq 2 times i think, obi wan 1 times in AOTC, 2 or less times in TCW, ventress a good 3 or so times, and obi wan and anakin together 2 times. thats 12, i think. im not counting novels nor comics btw, which have even more shit. they arent close at all. dooku was surprise by anakin. that affects the mind very obviously, which affects performance.

yeah, like i said above, the gap IS quite big, but surprise quality coming from anakin clearly affected dooku. after all, we have seen this more once again in savage as well. him disarming dooku comes from this. i do agree tho, that anakin has pressured him before, but literally only when he uses the dark side, which gives a boost of like, two times the users power (him and obi wan were losing to dooku, but then anakin goes and semi beats dooku by himself, so the amp is pretty big). so he got twice as strong, twice as fast, and double the stamina, while dooku is still thinking he is winning cuz he is cocky- this right here summarizes almost of their fights tbh hahaha

dooku has done that first one to obi wan more than once, i think actually... chocking someone to death is not a good strength feat lol he has forcefully disarmed both savage and grievous before, both of whom have also completely overpowered jedi knights before. hell, grievous has squished jedis before... i just told u about dooku's feat of almost breaking obi wan's 'ship hull-hard' bones, while knocking him out at the same... grievous has kicked in reinforced steel doors, and ventress has matched him in strength, while dooku has consistently overpowered her. malgus and him are equals if anything. with the force, but without it, yeah, he kinda destroys dooku.

sheev is literally and explicitly said to have learned almost all powers ever lol i dont doubt that valk has more powers than almost anybody else on the verse, but i cant see him being older being enough to surpass sheev in information acquired.  

that bane thing was to point out that he had 30 or so of those holocrons, from the banite sith. not to mention other holocrons that he took from the jedi order which have been hidden for thousands of years at max, and some too dangerous for some jedi to know about. 

i hate, hate saying this, but lucas confirmed that sheev was not holding back. people ask him this all the time, so he cleared it up before. 

i dont get ur point here? when sheev fought windu, like u said, whatever power that he put out was getting drained by vapaad, and making windu stronger, who was also pissed off and using the dark side. its like a dooku+ lvl fighter who had just used the dark side, while getting amped by a mini dark side nexus at the same time, who only grows stronger over time. thats windu in that stance. its no anti feat for him to lose to windu. like, windu is low key revan+ lvl at that point, imo.

same man. they did her dirty in the novel. we get all this dope shit from the game, and she goes and dies hahaha. not before getting fodderized by nyriss of course, even though she is literally stronger than kreia by this point lol that killed me man lol... malak would beat meetra?? in skill?? how?? i get revan having the quotes for it at least, but malak? 

i saw that. they take so long to do those lol both bring in good shit at least. idk if we can aid the debaters or not, so u know how it is lol didnt azronger complain about ant or something?

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:ok ok, thanks. i mean, it would be cool if he did have the accolade tho. i heard that his species is naturally far faster than any human can be, and he is in turn, an athlete, who can use some extremely high end for augmentation.

Oh believe me, Plagueis is no slouch when it comes to speed. One of the fastest in Star Wars. Of course, another thing to consider is: what is speed in Star Wars? Cause we got some characters who instead of enhancing their own speed, they slow their opponent. The most extreme example I can think of of this is when Valkorion stopped time for himself and the Outlander. So do we measure speed in relative terms, or in 'real time'?

quite easily happens wayyyy too often for it be 'saturday morning sindrome'

My point about Saturday morning syndrome is the fact that at one time we have Obi Wan easily holding his own again Ventress and even teasing her, and then the next moment we have both Anakin and Obi Wan fighting her and fairing far worse than either one did on their own. That's why Ventress is all over the place.

My point with Dooku is that we see clearly from the AotC and RotS novelizations that Anakin was holding his own in speed and power before he got angry. He was just less energy efficient than Count Dooku, so he tired out and lost (in the case of AotC). We also have him hold his own several times in the Clone Wars series.

My point wasn't that he could BEAT Dooku (until around the end of the Clone Wars) but that for a long time he had been encroaching on comparable territory.

thats like, 8 losses overall from what i can

That's like comparing two pro wrestler's track records and saying that one is way better than the other, even though when they fought it was close for a large part of the fight...

Its not just about whether you win or lose. Its HOW they won and WHY you lost. And also, how did you do during the fight?

My point is that Dooku has more experience than Anakin and Obi Wan combined. He can rely on things like muscle memory, which requires no thinking (which we clearly see in the RotS fight, where it was said that at times he was blocking out of reflex, his experience saving him).

As I pointed out in the AotC novelization, Dooku was at times "dodging more than parrying" while fighting Anakin. You don't do that unless someone is heavily pressing you and you CAN'T block everything.

the gap IS quite big

In experience and skill only

that anakin has pressured him before, but literally only when he uses the dark side

No, we see in the RotS novelization that Anakin was quite clearly not using the darkside while matching Dooku more than ever before, to the point Dooku was starting to get desperate as he realized he was fighting for his life. After Anakin accessed his rage, he unquestionably beat Dooku. But even before then, he was slowly winning.

almost breaking obi wan's 'ship hull-hard' bones

...almost breaking bones is not comparable to literally slamming Adraas (while actually breaking his bones) so hard that he flies away from Malgus and breaks a stone column in half.

And since when are Obi Wan's bones literally as hard as a ship? The only thing I could find even remotely close to that was that statement that Obi Wan had a hard head.

"Obi-Wan's breathing is strong and regular, none of his bones are broken, and his internal organs and nervous system all seem relatively fine. Indeed, he appears to be suffering from a concussion and nothing more. Apparently, Obi-Wan's head is somewhat harder than the cruiser's interior walls."

Which quite clearly shows that Dooku didn't manage to really do anything at all other than give him a concussion from kicking him down some stairs.

And it is also quite clearly a moment of levity from Anakin's perspective thinking about how his master had a hard head. Its hyperbolic, meant to release tension after a moment of panic for Obi Wan's well being.

Dooku is no where close to Malgus in raw strength. Heck, as I showed one of the quotes was Malgus cracking marble without even using the Force.

grievous has kicked in reinforced steel doors

And Grievous has overpowered Dooku before, pressing him to the point that it was just Dooku's superior experience that allowed him to overcome Grievous.

"There had been moments during the extensive combat sessions when even Dooku had been hard-pressed to outduel the cyborg. But then, Dooku had kept some secrets to himself."- Labyrinth of Evil

It is heavily implied that Dooku won because he didn't show Grievous everything.

Plus we have never seen a blade lock between Dooku and Grievous. Even during the old Clone Wars TV show, Dooku was deflecting. Not meeting strength with strength.

Not to mention Grievous has manhandled Ventress, throwing her against a wall so she slumped, as well as defeated both her and Durge definitively.

Even during their blade lock, Grievous only held it long enough to finish what he was saying. Then he broke it by shoving her back and kicking her so she flew back. This is also on Dathomir, where the Nightsisters get an amp even stronger than Dark side users normally get from a Nexus. They are tied to the planet.

Another thing to note about Malgus is that I left out one of his more impressive Force feats, in that in his Prime he is able to achieve a sort of Oneness with the Dark side (not to be confused with true Oneness).

but i cant see him being older being enough to surpass sheev in information acquired.  that bane thing was to point out that he had 30 or so of those holocrons, from the banite sith. not to mention other holocrons that he took from the jedi order which have been hidden for thousands of years at max

Vitiate was literally the Emperor of the entire Sith empire for over a thousand years. He not only had WAY more in terms of information available (given, again, he was basically the sole inheritor of over 20,000 years worth of accumulated knowledge in an uncountable number of holocrons, texts, and other repositories) he had over a thousand years to study them. Vitiate was every bit as knowledge hungry as the other big Sith knowledge seekers and unlike them he actually had the time to do it (not to mention, again, access to the entirety of all Sith knowledge, not just what could be found here and there long after the Sith empires were gone, like the Banites had to).

i hate, hate saying this, but lucas confirmed that sheev was not holding back. people ask him this all the time, so he cleared it up before. 

In the 2005 DvD director's commentary Lucas says that Palpatine was faking and not really beaten during the lightning attack.

The easiest way to reconcile everything is to say that Mace used Vaapad and shatterpoint to direct Palpatine's own energy into defeating him in the duel, but that after the duel Palpatine wasn't going full blast with his lightning.

This is reinforced in the novelization when Mace realized that Sidious wasn't actually afraid at all, in spite of his pleading, and that the shatterpoint he had been sensing was actually Sidious' trust of Anakin (which kinda helps to explain how Vader was able to take him by surprise in RotJ).

But my point wasn't really just about that, it was about this:
"he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face". "Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone."

As we can quite clearly see, Sidious' lightning was so strong that it was able to bend a lightsaber blade. And this was, again, without him going all out like he did vs Yoda.

Palpatine then cuts it off just as Mace tells Anakin that Sidious is killing him, right before the saber actually touches Mace's face, claiming he is too old and weak (when moments later he has absolutely no trouble summoning more lightning).

making windu stronger, who was also pissed off and using the dark side. 

See I don't think that is exactly it. Mace is able to create a circuit within himself to turn the darkside energy against its user, but he isn't actually using the dark side so much as redirecting it. He never actually leaves the light side.

Why do I say this?

Well, let's look at Mace's internal process during the dueling part of the fight with Sidious.

"Sinking into Vaapad, Mace Windu fought for his life. More than his life: each whirl of blade and whipcrack of lightning was a strike in defense of democracy, of justice and peace, of the rights of ordinary beings to live their own lives in their own ways. He was fighting for the Republic that he loved."

He is using Vaapad while following the ultimate Jedi ideals, more so than even the Code: the idea of protecting something even at the cost of one's self, subconsciously using love to amplify one's connection to the light.

"Because Mace, too, has an attachment. Mace has a secret love. Mace Windu loves the Republic."

We see this reoccur throughout Star Wars time and again: the idea that protecting something, or someone, that you love (protecting them and giving yourself for them, not desiring to possess them like Anakin did Padme) allows you to stand against the dark. That when you are protecting something, that is when you are at your peak in the light.

This allowed Mace to use Vaapad on a greater level than he ever used Vaapad before. His peak in the light was to be able to redirect more dark energy than he had ever done before.

It is those positive emotions, like compassion, that allow Vader to go far beyond what he could normally ever hope to summon, allowing him to withstand Sidious' lightning just long enough to kill him.

"So Vader is not powerful enough to kill the Emperor, but he does so in a very unexpected way. He does it not out of thinking or fear. He does it out of the super energy of wanting to protect his son, out of compassion. Vader finally has compassion for his son and realizes that his life has been a sham.”

We even see Revan doing it long term after Vitiate places him in stasis.

"But if (Revan) managed to delay (Vitiate) for fifty years, Bastila might never have to experience the horrors of another galactic war. A hundred and his son could live his whole life in an era of peace, never knowing the fear of facing utter annihilation."

In fact, its rather ironic because after the events of KOTOR 1 Revan wanted to introduce the use of positive emotions into official Jedi training and a few members the Council wanted to kick him out of the Order for even suggesting what they deemed "heresy".

"Denying or attempting to utterly control emotion, Revan felt, was a fool's game. Jealousy was actually the result of ill-prepared Jedi being overwhelmed by feelings they had never learned to face. Revan believed Jedi could be taught to use positive emotions like love and happiness to strengthen their connection to the Force in the same way that hatred and anger gave power to those who followed the dark side."

It could even be argued that wanting to save Anakin, out of love, (even by destroying what he had become) is what allowed Obi Wan to defeat Anakin on Mustafar.

Another emotion that Vaapad requires is enjoyment. You have to enjoy the fight. Which isn't truly a darkside emotion. Its actually really close to happiness. Its WHY you want to win that determines whether it is good. Mace's desire to win, again, traces back to his selfless love for the Republic.

So basically, Mace wasn't really using the darkside so much as allowing it to pass through him, and back into his enemy. Its still amplified him, because he is turning the dark energy against his opponent while also adding his own light energy in. Although, unlike tutaminis he isn't storing or absorbing the energy, or even directly matching it, but allowing it to pass through him.

What Mace is fighting for is love of the Republic, and desire to win in order to protect it, not out of the rage. He is accepting the dark, even his own inner darkness, rather than trying to repress it OR giving into it.

"Vaapad is a path that leads through the penumbra of the dark side." Vaapad isn't leading you into the darkside, but through it. Mace never leaves the light, which is what makes Vaapad a Jedi style (when mastered, obviously people have fallen to the dark when they failed to master it).

"He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center—And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt."

Vaapad isn't the repression of the dark OR use of it. It is the answer to it: accepting that it exists but not allowing it to control you.

Also, of note, it is specifically said that even with Mace directing Sidious' energy back at him they reached an "Impass. Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace's only gift".

He then uses shatterpoint to tip the scale: "he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge".

But as we know from later on, Sidious wasn't actually afraid, as Mace realizes: "And Palpatine was not afraid. Mace could feel it: he wasn't worried at all."

So in other words, both this and Lucas' statement that Palpatine wasn't really defeated in the DvD commentary line up. But it also lines up that Mace was able to win in the sabers by directing Sidious' power against him. Its just when the lightning comes out that Mace begins to be overwhelmed, even before he realized that Sidious wasn't actually afraid. At that point Sidious very carefully stopped just before Mace got overwhelmed, to give Anakin the chance to step in.

same man. they did her dirty in the novel. we get all this dope shit from the game, and she goes and dies hahaha. not before getting fodderized by nyriss of course, even though she is literally stronger than kreia by this point lol that killed me man lol

Well, the unofficial fan explanation (which actually works really well imo) is that after the events of KOTOR 2 Meetra was "healed" of her Force Wound, via the destruction of Malachor 5 and whatnot, and so she dropped back down to her natural levels.

It was honestly always the impression I got even before reading the Revan novel: that Meetra was "fixed" when she closed the Wound on Malachor 5.

And no, she wasn't stronger than Kreia:
"Although Traya was more powerful, the Exile managed to defeat her in combat"- Star Wars Complete Encyclopedia

Basically, Meetra's status as a Force Wound makes it extremely difficult to use Force based attacks on her. Which limits a lot of what Kreia can do. And although Kreia is no slouch in lightsaber combat (and even telekinetic lightsaber combat) she really isn't up there with it either.

So when it basically (for the most part) came down to sabers, Meetra was going to win.

This also helps to explain the Nyriss passage, because not only is Meetra (presumably) not a Force Wound any more but she has never faced a true lightsaber specialist like Nyriss before.

Regardless, I feel like she was done dirty mostly because I wish she could've lived out her days peacefully. Honestly her addition into the Revan novel felt like a quick way to tie up her story line. I kinda would've preferred it to just focus on Revan and Scourge, and just had another book that detailed Meetra helping with the remains of the Jedi Order and becoming a teacher or something. She deserved a break.

malak would beat meetra?? in skill?? how?? i get revan having the quotes for it at least, but malak? 

Well the thing is that during KOTOR 1 you actually focus a lot on Revan's lightsaber skills, hence his growth to the point he can defeat Malak even after fighting through armies of droids and Dark Jedi, while being on the Star Forge (which is an even stronger darkside nexus than places like Malachor 5 and Korriban). Before that, while Revan was a Sith, there is actually an argument to be made that Malak was just as good as Revan was at sabers and that it was Revan's superior strength in/command of the Force that kept him ahead.

And this was while Revan was a Sith, stronger than he had been as a Jedi. Even as a Jedi, Revan was stated to have learned everything that Kreia had to offer long before the Mandalorian Wars. Also while Revan was a Sith, he defeated Yusanis in a duel "quickly". Yusanis was the strongest of the Echani, a legendary warrior even while alive, and far superior to Brianna and her sisters. Also note that Brianna had respect for Revan. If she felt he had cheated via the Force (like by battering Yusanis around or squishing him with a rock) she wouldn't have. It would have been against Echani dueling etiquette. This held true even through Revan's war on the Republic.

"The most advanced among the Echani are able to predict the course of battles by months, and the most revered are said to be able to predict the path of wars. Only Revan ever demonstrated such a skill in war. And even as he slaughtered us, the Echani still respected him."- Brianna

So Malak gets some scaling off Jedi Revan and Darth Revan. Plus, if his self hype is to be believed, he became even stronger after he betrayed Revan.

Malak has numerous mentions of him going out and facing armies. He was credited with having contributed to the war against the Mandalorians greatly with his battlefield feats, being the second largest contributor to the war after Revan.

Unlike the Exile and Revan, Malak is a form specialist (from what we know he used Juyo), and focused greatly on his saber skills. And honestly I'd put his raw Force power a bit above Kreia (she has far better control/skill, and more diverse abilities though). Even if it came down to sabers, Malak was the second best in the Order for a reason (and that was before he became far more powerful as a Sith).

Furthermore, we have a rather infamous accolade for Malak:
"An imposing figure with ghostly pale features, prominent Sith tattoos, a gleaming red lightsaber, and devastating Dark Side power, Malak struck terror into the hearts of his former allies. He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support. Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?"

Accolades from this source have been confirmed by Leland Chee to have gone through Lucas Licensing approval (it was sent to them a month in advance for review to be carefully checked over for continuity, and then went through a second review right before release).

When asked to clarify years later, Cory J. Herndon stated that "on the specific question of Malak vs Exar Kun, I'd still side with Malak".

While accolades alone do not a villain make, and they must be (imo) taken with a grain of salt, the fact that they are being officially compared at all is rather huge deal.

i saw that. they take so long to do those lol both bring in good shit at least. idk if we can aid the debaters or not, so u know how it is lol didnt azronger complain about ant or something?

The point of the debate is to limit it to two people, so I'd say no. And I'm not sure lol, I don't really pay attention to complaints.

@lorenzo.r.2nd @caffeineandshiny I saw my name mentioned and something about aiding debaters. Can one of you explain the situation?

Azronger wrote:@lorenzo.r.2nd @caffeineandshiny I saw my name mentioned and something about aiding debaters. Can one of you explain the situation?

I was just referring Lorenzo to your debate with Ant as a good read, since they were wondering about Vader and Revan scaling. When Lorenzo asked about helping, I said that I would assume that the point of a 2 person debate is to leave it at just that: 2 people.

I was if other members can aid someone else in a SS