Vaylin vs. Darth Plagueis - lightsabers only

As read from the title: no external Force powers allowed.

Plagueis destroys her in short order.

Plagueis stomps.

Plagueis shreds

Plagueis in a good fight. I definitely believe Plagueis has far more technical mastery with the blade, and more than enough raw power to compete, (though I do believe in terms of sheer power Vaylin exceeds Plagueis, given her potential to surpass Valkorion and array of Starkiller-like power feats that defy logic,) but the Vaylin we see struggling against Senya in dueling is not remotely the same warrior who was able to stalemate Peak Arcann in sabers for a rather extended period of time, (who is probably the best swordsman in history up till his time sans Outlander, all things considered). Nor is this incarnation of Vaylin remotely the same warrior as Vaylin in KOTET Chapter 8, when she had finally broken out of her mental conditioning. Her exponential growth in short periods of time lends itself to massive improvement in dueling, based on the evidence.


Ultimately, though, it far more difficult to compare dueling across eras than force abilities imo, beyond quotes that state "Yoda/Mace/Sidious" are the best swordsmen of all time and quotes along those lines, (if they even exist? I'm pretty sure they do). Something I think would be beneficial for these kinds of discussions is to scour the lore for some meaningful knowledge/dueling wank for force users of other eras. I think we've been sort of ignoring the fact that we basically place all the other greatest duelists ever before or after the PT vaguely in tier 8, usually below or at best on par with the likes of Kenobi/Maul. Not that I think such beings aren't in the absolute top echelon of history when it comes to dueling, and they have the sheer quantity and quality of quotes to support it, but I think the likes of Arcann, Vaylin, Bane, Revan, Wrath, amongst others require a bit more nuanced analysis/educated speculation to have a fair shake, given the sheer lack of exploration into dueling wank in these other eras.

Azathoth, Lord of Chaos wrote:Plagueis in a good fight. I definitely believe Plagueis has far more technical mastery with the blade, and more than enough raw power to compete, (though I do believe in terms of sheer power Vaylin exceeds Plagueis, given her potential to surpass Valkorion and array of Starkiller-like power feats that defy logic,) but the Vaylin we see struggling against Senya in dueling is not remotely the same warrior who was able to stalemate Peak Arcann in sabers for a rather extended period of time, (who is probably the best swordsman in history up till his time sans Outlander, all things considered). Nor is this incarnation of Vaylin remotely the same warrior as Vaylin in KOTET Chapter 8, when she had finally broken out of her mental conditioning. Her exponential growth in short periods of time lends itself to massive improvement in dueling, based on the evidence.


Ultimately, though, it far more difficult to compare dueling across eras than force abilities imo, beyond quotes that state "Yoda/Mace/Sidious" are the best swordsmen of all time and quotes along those lines, (if they even exist? I'm pretty sure they do). Something I think would be beneficial for these kinds of discussions is to scour the lore for some meaningful knowledge/dueling wank for force users of other eras. I think we've been sort of ignoring the fact that we basically place all the other greatest duelists ever before or after the PT vaguely in tier 8, usually below or at best on par with the likes of Kenobi/Maul. Not that I think such beings aren't in the absolute top echelon of history when it comes to dueling, and they have the sheer quantity and quality of quotes to support it, but I think the likes of Arcann, Vaylin, Bane, Revan, Wrath, amongst others require a bit more nuanced analysis/educated speculation to have a fair shake, given the sheer lack of exploration into dueling wank in these other eras.

I had forgotten about Vaylin's bout with Arcann - did they definitively stalemate or was it inconclusive? Regardless, I think it highlights her exponential growth rate similar to Luke. Even then, I severely doubt it's enough to deal with Plagueis' own top-tier levels of skill, pure ferocity, and the ability to transcend technique and mitigate stylistic factors entirely, not to mention his mind-boggling physical stats. Even if you have Vaylin on Plagueis' level or higher in the Force (for the record, I don't, not even close), pure Force strength isn't enough.

Plagueis, good fight.

More than anything else I'm curious what "Starkiller-like feats" Vaylin is in possession of? I can't remember the last time she influenced something like millions of tons worth of weight telekinetically, disintegrated half of a frigate while free falling and shielding ones self from atmospheric reentry heats or disintegrated dozens of malformed Starkiller clones who in aggregate had enough power to annihilate Darth Vader.

ILS wrote:Disintegrated dozens of malformed Starkiller clones who in aggregate had enough power to annihilate Darth Vader.

Keep in mind as well that this was while he was exhausted after the destruction of the Salvation.

Comparing characters to Galen in environmental TK and lightning feats never ends well.

Vaylin dies.

DC77 wrote:Comparing characters to Galen in environmental TK and lightning feats never ends well.

I agree - Vaylin is too weak to match Starkiller so it won't end well for her.

@Azronger I see Vaylin winning but it's certainly not through environmental TK or Lightning feats in which Galen has her woefully outclassed, just as he does with every other character.

Azronger wrote:

Azathoth, Lord of Chaos wrote:Plagueis in a good fight. I definitely believe Plagueis has far more technical mastery with the blade, and more than enough raw power to compete, (though I do believe in terms of sheer power Vaylin exceeds Plagueis, given her potential to surpass Valkorion and array of Starkiller-like power feats that defy logic,) but the Vaylin we see struggling against Senya in dueling is not remotely the same warrior who was able to stalemate Peak Arcann in sabers for a rather extended period of time, (who is probably the best swordsman in history up till his time sans Outlander, all things considered). Nor is this incarnation of Vaylin remotely the same warrior as Vaylin in KOTET Chapter 8, when she had finally broken out of her mental conditioning. Her exponential growth in short periods of time lends itself to massive improvement in dueling, based on the evidence.


Ultimately, though, it far more difficult to compare dueling across eras than force abilities imo, beyond quotes that state "Yoda/Mace/Sidious" are the best swordsmen of all time and quotes along those lines, (if they even exist? I'm pretty sure they do). Something I think would be beneficial for these kinds of discussions is to scour the lore for some meaningful knowledge/dueling wank for force users of other eras. I think we've been sort of ignoring the fact that we basically place all the other greatest duelists ever before or after the PT vaguely in tier 8, usually below or at best on par with the likes of Kenobi/Maul. Not that I think such beings aren't in the absolute top echelon of history when it comes to dueling, and they have the sheer quantity and quality of quotes to support it, but I think the likes of Arcann, Vaylin, Bane, Revan, Wrath, amongst others require a bit more nuanced analysis/educated speculation to have a fair shake, given the sheer lack of exploration into dueling wank in these other eras.

I had forgotten about Vaylin's bout with Arcann - did they definitively stalemate or was it inconclusive? Regardless, I think it highlights her exponential growth rate similar to Luke. Even then, I severely doubt it's enough to deal with Plagueis' own top-tier levels of skill, pure ferocity, and the ability to transcend technique and mitigate stylistic factors entirely, not to mention his mind-boggling physical stats. Even if you have Vaylin on Plagueis' level or higher in the Force (for the record, I don't, not even close), pure Force strength isn't enough.

That usually is the main component that determines the outcome of the battle between beings having similar level of experience and training. Though I don't think Vaylin's technical skill comes remotely close(unless there is evidence that Skillz has on that)

Plag

Lol at Plagueis stomping. As if he'll stomp an Arcann level duelist with superior power and therefore superior augmentation.

i dont wanna say he stomps, but he does win without too much trouble? if that makes sense?

Plagueis wrecks.