Darth Vader ROTJ VS End of ROTS Kenobi.

Kenobi is better than a sub AOTC Anakin opponent.

Ziggy wrote:Kenobi is better than a sub AOTC Anakin opponent.

Lmao u love trashing Vader

Though I'm pretty sure you are a troll?

@SithSauce

ANH Vader can be>Ben Kenobi though. wrote:

I mean based on their duel Kenobi is either equal or superior so I'm going to have to disagree with you here.

Vader being sub AOTC Anakin is blatantly false and can be dismissed as well. wrote:

On what grounds is it "blatantly false"? If only saying it made it true... Proof, please?

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote:@SithSauce

I mean based on their duel Kenobi is either equal or superior so I'm going to have to disagree with you here.

Emotionally unbalanced, extra cautious, and Pre Prime Vader... sure, really a nice card to pull. Relevance?

On what grounds is it "blatantly false"? If only saying it made it true... Proof, please?

The six quotes that say he is superior to MFV

@in-sidiousvader

Emotionally unbalanced, extra cautious, and Pre Prime Vader... sure, really a nice card to pull. Relevance? wrote:

1) Proof is required for Vader being emotionally unbalanced.

2) Him being cautious is irrelevant and an incredibly bad excuse and is irrelevant given Kenobi clearly outperformed Vader in certain parts of the fight and definitely was equal to him.

3) Pre-prime Vader is irrelevant given all of the quotes saying Vader is > his Mustafar self are referring to ANH.

The six quotes that say he is superior to MFV wrote:

There's only 1 quote saying he's superior to Mustafar Vader which doesn't include KF Vader.

See this is what I mean when I say you can wank or lowball Vader with any number of sources. With a few exceptions - that being TFU - Vader in the OT is consistently depicted as a  washed up post-prime warrior, top dog in a era largely devoid of powerful Jedi competition. He lost convincingly to TPM Maul, was barely better and mostly stalemated by ANH Kenobi, the latter of whom is < RotS Kenobi, and he was hardpresed by EBS Luke, as per his own musings despite his "vast improvement". And this guy is supposed to be > RotS Anakin and Kenobi? Please.

His 19-18 BBY showings in the Jedi Purge however are some of the best in the mythos and easily on par with the best Maul/Kenobi/Dooku/Anakin have to offer. This guy could beat RotS Kenobi in a good fight.

Kilius wrote:See this is what I mean when I say you can wank or lowball Vader which any number of sources. With a few exceptions - that being TFU - Vader in the OT is consistently depicted as a  washed up post-prime warrior, top dog in a era largely devoid of powerful Jedi competition. He lost convincingly to TPM Maul, was barely better and mostly stalemated by ANH Kenobi, the latter of whom is < RotS Kenobi, and he was hardpresed by EBS Luke, as per his own musings despite his "vast improvement". And this guy is supposed to be > RotS Anakin and Kenobi? Please.

His 19-18 BBY showings in the Jedi Purge however are some of the best in the mythos and easily on par with the best Maul/Kenobi/Dooku/Anakin have to offer. This guy could RotS Kenobi in a good fight.

Alright Kilius, link me some of his 19-18 bby showings. I wanna see the full power of Prime Vader because, so far, I'm not buyin it. Although it would be nice to have all the OT and TFU feats as post prime and a shadow of the warrior he once was, I'm waitin on it bud.

SithSauce wrote:

Ziggy wrote:Kenobi is better than a sub AOTC Anakin opponent.

Lmao u love trashing Vader

Correct

Though I'm pretty sure you are a troll?

Irrespective of what I may have been/am now/might be, Vader sucking is a genuine interpretation of mine. He's below AOTC Anakin, possibly below even TPM Kenobi in some respects.

I think it's evident when you look at an aggregate of his fights

Nay. Every single one of his fights in legends and the movies.

I think it's evident if you consider that some sources are more reliable than others. For example, the Fightsaber article is one of the most highly referenced sources within the EU regarding Jedi and Sith Combat.

It introduced us the seven forms of the lightsaber

... It claimed Vader was below his AOTC self

It's evident when you consider Luke was his equal in Return of the Jedi

That Luke is a neo-chosen one, a diluted Anakin

yet had a tenth of the training as as Anakin did in AOTC

Kilius wrote:His 19-18 BBY showings in the Jedi Purge however are some of the best in the mythos and easily on par with the best Maul/Kenobi/Dooku/Anakin have to offer. This guy could beat RotS Kenobi in a good fight.

Except Vader at the height of his power is noted as RoTJ:

Return of the Jedi Novelisation wrote:His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor.

Thus, he scales above any showings he displays in 19-18 BBY. Regardless, killing a bunch of random Jedi after they slapped him around a bit, likely the most powerful of them being Bultar Swan - eh forgive me if I'm unimpressed.

TheGlory wrote:

Kilius wrote:His 19-18 BBY showings in the Jedi Purge however are some of the best in the mythos and easily on par with the best Maul/Kenobi/Dooku/Anakin have to offer. This guy could beat RotS Kenobi in a good fight.

Except Vader at the height of his power is noted as RoTJ:

Return of the Jedi Novelisation wrote:His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor.

Thus, he scales above any showings he displays in 19-18 BBY. Regardless, killing a bunch of random Jedi after they slapped him around a bit, likely the most powerful of them being Bultar Swan - eh forgive me if I'm unimpressed.

It's one of those feats/showings/consistency > statements situations. 18 BBY Vader moved faster than 18 BBY Kenobi yet ANH Kenobi, who per a plethora of quotes and the movie itself is inferior combatively to RotS Kenobi, roughly stalemates him. Vader is supposed to be more powerful than Maul Dooku and Anakin yet loses solidly to TPM Maul come around ANH. According to Fightsaber Vader is "far more formidable an opponent" yet as per his own musings in Shadow of the Empire he is challenged by rookie Luke.

Kilius wrote:It's one of those feats/showings/consistency > statements situations. 18 BBY Vader moved faster than 18 BBY Kenobi yet ANH Kenobi, who per a plethora of quotes and the movie itself is inferior combatively to RotS Kenobi, roughly stalemates him. Vader is supposed to be more powerful than Maul Dooku and Anakin yet loses solidly to TPM Maul come around ANH. According to Fightsaber Vader is "far more formidable an opponent" yet as per his own musings in Shadow of the Empire he is challenged by rookie Luke.

Then it would appear you follow a different policy to that of the board generally. Typically quotes outright stating a character is at their height in power are accepted unless they are contradicted by other up-to-date quotations or the source is subjective and/or questionable in nature. Whether or not Vader's feats are better and what point in his life is irrelevant if quotes state that he's more powerful at X point, in this case RoTJ. Whether or not Dooku, Maul or Anakin are beneath or higher than Vader is a separate debate, but the fact ESB Luke performed so well should surely reflect positively on Skywalker rather than negatively on Vader.

Besides, it's hardly like 19-18 BBY Vader hasn't got his fair share of poor showings. Sha Koon and the Kessel Jedi come to mind.

For the last time ESB Luke didn't put up a fight against Vader. Notice the only times Luke tagged Vader (kicking him off the platform, landing a blow on his shoulder), Vader makes a goofy sound, implying he wasn't taking the fight seriously. He literally could've ended the fight whenever he wanted too. And he did... Vader stomped him. Simple.
Vader lowballers will keep refusing this.

TheGlory wrote:Then it would appear you follow a different policy to that of the board generally.

Quotes for Vader can be mined from any source. Lucas has stated Vader lost a lot of his power in the ESB commentary and fightsaber states that Vader along with Kenobi are "shadows of their former selves". And it's not just a lack of feats to back up his statements - I have no issue scaling someone with no feats higher than someone with feats if there's nothing to contradict the quote. The problem is that Vader has poor showings against opponents he's stated to be above. Vader is supposedly the most powerful of Sidious's apprentices and more powerful than Jedi Anakin and possibly KF Vader yet loses convincingly to TPM Maul just days before ANH. TCW Maul is more powerful than TPM Maul but he is more or less stalemated by TCW Kenobi who is debatably superior come RotS and factually post-prime come ANH and even Death Star a relatively recent version of the fight seriously hard-pressed Vader - the latter couldn't even spare the concentration to warn the stromtroopers not to intervene. And no contrary to DeadlyJedi's insistence Vader was trying against ESB Luke - he wasn't trying to kill him but he was doing his best to subdue him - he admits as much in Shadow of the Empire as DarthAnt pointed out in his CaV with Az.

I don't feel like I'm cherry-picking here, This is a very consistent pattern in the OT era. Vader is still formidable but he's lost a lot of his Force reserves and his natural talent. The top dogs of the PT era scale demonstrably above him based on his defeats to TPM Maul and parity with post-prime Kenobi.

Vader great fight

Kenobi stomps. Make it TPM and we have a fight.

Vader dies horribly

Vader in an amazing fight if he exploits his Force edge, Kenobi in a good fight if it remains at sabers.

WalkingInCircles wrote:Vader in an amazing fight if he exploits his Force edge, Kenobi in a good fight if it remains at sabers.

this .

RoTJ vader is RoTS dooku level force user and great duelist as well .
if he abuses the force he most likely wins but it is not in his character when fighting kenobi ,
he always wants to prove he can outduel obi-wan which would be his undoing (in a great lightsaber fight) .

so i´m going to say kenobi because of his impeccable soresu defence .

the amount of suit vader trash talk and lowballing is disturbing as of late .

@dark_globe Still waiting for rationalisation of your stances on Vader given he's factually sub TPM Kenobi. I won't be shocked if you can't, given you've lost every debate we've ever had, even when aided by Lorenzo but I'll keep my hopes up in any case.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:@dark_globe Still waiting for rationalisation of your stances on Vader given he's factually sub TPM Kenobi. I won't be shocked if you can't, given you've lost every debate we've ever had, even when aided by Lorenzo but I'll keep my hopes up in any case.

there is no need to address that any further .
i have no obligation to react to your (most likely) troll posts (and you have made plenty in a past few days , no need to waste my time on that ) .

@dark_globe

there is no need to address that any further .
i have no obligation to react to your (most likely) troll posts (and you have made plenty in a past few days , no need to waste my time on that ) .

So, you're too scared to debate me, as has become the norm. Concession accepted DG darling.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:@dark_globe

there is no need to address that any further .
i have no obligation to react to your (most likely) troll posts (and you have made plenty in a past few days , no need to waste my time on that ) .

So, you're too scared to debate me, as has become the norm. Concession accepted DG darling.

the fact i don´t want to waste my time debating you is no consession darling .

what feats does TPM kenobi have (other than getting lucky against TPM maul) to even have this conversation ?!
so either stop trolling or provide some feats for TPM kenobi
(but wait thats right you can´t because there are non exept of maybe some vague statements) .

with you it goes like this :
you trash talk , you insult , you make a few good points here and there ,
than you get banned for a month or so , you return , you continue to trash talk , you continue to make a lot of troll posts .
just going in circles .

@dark_globe:

the fact i don´t want to waste my time debating you is no consession darling .

Are you a flat earther by any chance because this statement is about as true as anything they've said?

what feats does TPM kenobi have (other than getting lucky against TPM maul) to even have this conversation ?!
so either stop trolling or provide some feats for TPM kenobi
(but wait thats right you can´t because there are non exept of maybe some vague statements) .

There's nothing vague about what Lucas said. And I don't need feats, the WoG makes them irrelevant.

with you it goes like this :
you trash talk , you insult ,

Proud of you darling, you finally spoke some words of truth.

you make a few good points here and there ,

Love you too gorgeous, if not for the same reasons.

than you get banned for a month or so , you return , you continue to trash talk , you continue to make a lot of troll posts .
just going in circles .

All true except for the part about me trolling. And going in circles is fun, I never get tired of making idiots look like... idiots.

i never met anyone so full of himself in a long time .
the fact someone has slightly different scaling and understanding about fictional characters doesn´t make him an idiot ,
you are making a fool of yourself by thinking so . don´t get too hang up on this forum and enjoy your real life sometime .

He never said you're an idiot because of your stances. I don't have Vader as sub-TPM Kenobi and he doesn't think I'm stupid.