On the Full sucess of the Rule of Two

We know that we have around 30 Sith lords in the whole banite lineage but know nothing about most of them. I will here explain the error that have been made on the quantification of growth during the millenium of the Rule of Two.

MISSCONCEPTION N°1: the apprentice already equals their master during their fateful confrontation, and after the deed is done they gain a Bane of power on top of their current level
This first error is based on a torturous interpretation of a Sidious's quote and some material which didn't proove anything. Here they are:
"Bane's power has been passed down for a thousand years. I vow to be its last recipient." - Darth Sidious, Book of the Sith
The differents quotes used to prove this theory:

• Even from a distance, she had sensed an incredible burst of power - the same power she had sensed in Bane himself. She didn’t know how it was possible, but it almost seemed as if the Dark Lord’s life energy had burst free of his physical form in one glorious instant, releasing itself upon the material world. Then, as suddenly as she had sensed the presence, it was gone, vanishing like an animal gone to ground.
  

• Awake in the oppressive heat, he replayed the events of the previous day, still somewhat astounded by what he had done. The Force had whispered to him: Your moment has come. Claim your stake to the dark side. Act now and be done with this. But the Force had only advised; it had neither dictated his actions nor guided his hands. That had been his doing alone. He knew from his travels with and without Tenebrous that he wasn't the galaxy's sole practitioner of the dark side - nor Sith for that matter, since the galaxy was rife with pretenders - but he was now the only Sith Lord descended from the Bane line. A true Sith, and that realization roused the raw power coiled inside him. [...]With 11-4D deep in processing mode, Plagueis withdrew a vial of his own blood and subjected it to analysis. Despite the recent amplification of his powers he sensed that his midi-chlorian count had not increased since the events on Bal'demnic, and the analysis of the blood sample confirmed his suspicions.
  

• A tremor took hold of the planet. Sprung from death, it unleashed itself in a powerful wave, at once burrowing deep into the world's core and radiating through its saccharine atmosphere to shake the stars themselves. At the quake's epicenter stood Sidious, one elegant hand vised on the burnished sill of an expansive translucency, a vessel filled suddenly to bursting, the Force so strong within him that he feared he might disappear into it, never to return. But the moment didn't constitute an ending so much as a true beginning, long overdue; it was less a transformation than an intensification - a gravitic shift. A welter of voices, near and far, present and from eons past, drowned his thoughts. Raised in praise, the voices proclaimed his reign and cheered the inauguration of a new order. Yellow eyes lifted to the night sky, he saw the trembling stars flare, and in the depth of his being he felt the power of the dark side anoint him. […] The dark side had made him its property, and now he made the dark side his. Breathless, not from exertion but from the sudden inspiration of power, he let go of the sill and allowed the monster to writhe through his body like an unbroken beast of range or prairie. Had the Force ever been so strong in anyone? Sidious had never learned how Plagueis's own Master had met his end. Had he died at Plagueis's hand? Had Plagueis, too, experienced a similar exultation on becoming a sole Sith Lord? Had the beast of the end time risen then to peek at the world it was to inhabit, knowing its release was imminent?
  

Well the simplest way to understand Sidious's quote is to understand that throughout the whole banite lineage the power of the darkside have been teach from a master to his apprentice. It is pretty obvious when you read the quote. Anyway this one could be wrong and the other theory can be true. What are its back up ?

• A quote from Zannah point of view where she feel in the aire a burst of power similar to the one Bane hold. But the quote dooesn't mention the fact that Zannah take for her this energy. This is exactly the opposite: it release "itself upon the material world" (not in Zannah body) and then "it was gone, vanishing". Clearly this isn't a proof of that theory.
  
• A quote from Plagueis who discover that his force power have augmented but not his midi-chlorian count after the death of his master.This could be take as a very weak argument of this, but we have no proof that the increase of power is equal to a Bane or anything else. An increase is something pretty vague. Going from 1 to 10 is an increase but going from 1 to 1,0001 is also one. We just know that this happend when Tenebrous was killed.
  
• A quote from Sidious after he killed Plagueis and his power increase. Once again we can see that his power have increased and that he become more powerful. But we also have no idea of this augmentation. The really interresting part comes from the fact that this quote literraly destroy the whole theory of the increase of a Bane each generation. Indeed, by following the logic of this theory, Palpatine should have a power around 30 Banes. In the quote we can see that the burst of power that he feels is really insane: " so strong within him that he feared he might disappear into it, never to return." if we follow the theory this would have been an increase of 1 Bane so 1/30 of his power. Nothing as impressive as a power that could loose Sheev into itself. Clearly this just proove the theory wrong.
  

As we can see the theory have no solid back up even having been prooven wrong by the last quote. The only thing that we have seen is that following the death of their master, the apprentice gain an unknown amount of power.

MISSCONCEPTION N°2: Darth Zannah beat Darth Bane because she was more powerful
I think this will shock most of people who will read this. But this is a fact. She didn't defeat Bane because she was more powerful but because she know more about some part of the darkside. Moreover her victory happend only because they were near a dark side nexus where she can summon her dark tendrils.
We have exactly two quotes from the Bane trilogy explaining that Zannah could be more powerful than Bane:

• "His power was undeniable, yet as she felt it building she was confident his abilities would be no match for hers."- ROT
  
• “Zannah was smart and cunning, and her powers in the dark side might be even greater than his own.”-DOE
  

This two quotes didn't prooved that she was more powerful but only that she could be. The first one is clearly prooved wrong by her defeat against Bane during ROT.

Spoiler:

The second one is also prooved wrong during DOE:

• Zannah is unable to TK him while he wasn't focus on her and was weakened: He began to gather the dark side, the power slowly building. But before he could unleash it he was hit by a wall of thunderous force rolling out from a corridor to his left. Instinctively he threw up a defensive shield, absorbing the blow. If she have been really above him, he shouldn't have the time and the power to whistand the blow. Instead of this, while he was preparing himself to unleash an attack, he was able to erect a shield which succeed.
  
• And she should have been able to do the same while attacking Bane : As her blade bit into the cocoon the energy was released in a sudden burst that sent both of them flying backward. Bane slammed hard into the wall against his back and crumpled to the ground. Zannah was tossed ten meters farther, landing hard on the stone floor. She isn't able to absorb his blast.
  
• While Bane was under her madness spell, she failled to kill him neither by using it nor by using other force power.
  
• She only win after using her power to summon dark side tendrils, but we have zero proof that she can done this on a neutral ground: This time, however, she didn't attack Bane directly. Instead, she let it flow through her, drawing it from the soil and stone of Ambria itself. She called to power buried for centuries, summoning it up to the surface in wispy tendrils of dark smoke snaking up from the sand . And even with this she nearly loose: With his foe unarmed and helpless at his feet Bane brought his arm down for the coup de grace, only to have it intercepted mid-swing by one of the dark side tendrils
  

Clearly we have zero clue for thinking that Zannah is more powerful than Bane when she defeat him. She only win because she know a force attack that he failled to counter (not because of a lack of strenght in the force but because of a lack of knowledge): They were made of pure dark side energy, and there was no way he could harm them.

MISSCONCEPTION N°3: Darth Gravid wasn't a setback to the banite lineage.
This is one of the most controversed point each time someone disagree with the success of the Banite scaling. But factually Gravid was a setback:
"Their Order[the Jedi Order] might have already been decimated had it not been for the setback Darth Gravid dealt the Sith."
Now the real question is the following: have been Gravid only a setback because he destroyed lots of sith knowledge ? or this setback is also in the power in the force level ? Obviously in term of sith knowledge Gravid have been a huge setback because he: was thought to have destroyed more than half the repository of artifacts.
One theory is that even though there was a lost of knowledge there wasn't any loose of power based on the fact that Gravid was killed by his unarmed apprentice: Gean, demonstrating consummate will and courage, had managed to penetrate the Force fields Gravid had raised around their stronghold and intercede, killing her Master with her bare hands, though at the cost of her arm, shoulder, and the entire left side of her face and chest.
But this theory is wrong for this reasons:

• Gean kill him with her bare hand, not with some force power. If she have been more powerful than Gravid she should have killed him with some force attack such as TK or something else. Here she just use her bare hands... clearly not a proof of her force superiority, but rather the fact that she is a better fighter than a mad man.
  
• The fact that Gean was able to break the Force Barrier created by Gravid isn't the proof that she is more powerful in the Force than him. Indeed, Gravid was shielding the whole fortress, exerting his power on all of this area. Gean didn't need to destroy the whole shield to face her master, she just need to manage herself an opening large enough for her to enter. So she hadn't face the full power of her master but only the part that remain on the place where she want to enter.
  
• Gravid was a sith who betrayed the sith conception of the force and want to use both side of the force. Because of this he become mad: Driven increasingly mad by his attempts to straddle the two realms. Clearly because he become mad he cannot be in his prime during the fight against Gean. 
  
• In addition we have also this about Gravid: "Gravid had been persuaded to believe that total commitment to the dark side would sentence the Sith Order to eventual defeat, and so had sought to introduce Jedi selflessness and compassion into his teachings and practice" and "forgetting that there can be no return to the light for an adept who has entered the dark wood; that the dark side will not surrender one to whom, by mutual agreement, it has staked a claim". Some people will claim this is a proof of Gravid being not affect by his conception but this is clearly a the opposite, we have the proove that Gravid was trying not to use the dark side of the force and even though he failled this is the proof that he wasn't able to use fully his potential (because he didn't embrace the Darkside).
  

So clearly we have no reasons for thinking that the victory of Gean over Gravid is the proof of the the rule of two always succeed.

MISSCONCEPTION N°4: The rule have been fully follow by nearly all of its members
This is clearly one of the most forgotten part of the Rule of Two. Even though it was finally a sucess, this wasn't a success at each stage. This is clearly shown here:
"Like Plagueis, Tenebrous had obviously embraced the fact that Darth Bane's Rule of Two had expired. Precious few Sith Lords had honored it,in any case, and with good reason, as Plagueis saw it. The goals of the Grand Plan were revenge and the reacquisition of galactic power. But while most Sith Lords since Bane had in their own fashion helped to weaken the Republic, their efforts had owed less to selflessness and allegiance to the Rule than to weakness and incompetence. Driven to discharge Bane's imperative they might have been, and yet each had fallen prey to individual foibles and eccentricities, and so had failed to exact revenge on the the Jedi Order."
"And yet, while all Sith Lords were powerful, not all were brilliant or in complete possession of the powers the dark side granted them."
(Thanks to Redheaten for this quotes)
I agree on the fact that this seems contradictory with lots of quotes commonly used to show the sucess of the Rule. Lets just see this quotes:

• "Over a millennium woven with shadowy conspiracy, their dark powers grew, teetering the Force into imbalance." NOT EACH GENERATION, GLOBALLY
  
• "When the apprentice becomes more powerful than the Master, he destroys his Master and chooses an apprentice of his own." A EXPLANATION OF HOW THE RULE WORK, NOT WHAT HAPPEND
  
• "Never again would there be more than two Sith Lords at one time, but members of the order continued expanding their dark powers without the knowledge of the Jedi, waiting for the opportunityto seize control of the galaxy." - NOT EACH GENERATION, GLOBALLY
  
• "As they gained knowledge of the dark side of the Force, their powers increased with each generation."#1 EACH GENERATION
  
• "For a thousand years, we continued to follow Bane's Rule of Two, existing in the shadows, biding our time, growing in power, feeding our hatred" NOT EACH GENERATION, GLOBALLY
  
• "Ultimately, Bane's plan produced more powerful sith lord with each generation"#2 EACH GENERATION
  

As you can see, there is only two amongst six quotes talking about the growth at each generation. They come from The Phantom Menace Scrapbook and Force and Destiny. In comparison to this you have the quotes that I provide from the novel Darth Plagueis .
We must choose between the two theory. Here are the reasoning which lead me to what I have written:

• the two little quotes aren't really from specialist or focus of the banite scaling (one is a book from TPM moovie and the other a manual from an RP game) contrary to the one from Plagueis novel which is way more focus on the whole story of the banite lineage with its success and its failure through the story that Plagueis tell to Sidious and through the narrator who explain what lead Plagueis not to follow the Rule of Two.
  
• From a simple statistical point of view, there is zero reason for the birth each 33 years (in order to have around 30 sith lords over one thousand years) of a being with more power than every one before him (the futur apprentice) and this for 1000 years whithout any interference from the jedi (they are also looking for every single Force sensitive).
  

*CONCLUSION*

Even though the banite rule of two was a success in his globality, we have countless proof that it wasn't a full success at each steps and may have suffer even some setbacks. To briefly precise what happend just see the two graph:

In both case we can see that the rule was globally a success but in the second one we have made it way more realistic based on what we have seen previously. (NB: this two graphs are just here to give you an idea not the result of an accurate reflexion for each movement). Because of this, we have also that match-up between the PT era and Bane era are possible and no one can said "because of the Banite scaling, this PT guy stomp this Bane-era guy".

1. Agreed with the first misconception, Bane's "power" is obviously referring to his status as the reigning Dark Lord of the Sith, not his literal Force. And I don't see how anyone can interpret that DOE passage to mean his "power" got transferred to Zannah when it's obviously Bane's spirit trying to possess Zannah, hence Cognus addressing Zannah as Bane in the next passage despite how insane she know her words would sound. 

The other two examples as you said is proof Plagueis and Sidious grew in power, but it is not evidenced the former Dark Lord literally transferred his entire power over.

2. Disagree with parts of the second misconception. They are super close, close enough Cognus kept seeing different victors in her visions in a future that is always in motion, and Bane is a better lightsaber duelist but Zannah should be better overall.  Bane did beat the spell but it was a weaker version; the one she had been charging before she was forced to expend all her gathered energy in the desperate scramble to defend herself when she lost her footing would have been much more potent. The best evidence is the ritual of essence transfer, which was a test of the other's strength of will and Zannah's proved the greater and thus the more worthy to lead the Sith.

A few corrections: 

"His power was undeniable, yet as she felt it building she was confident his abilities would be no match for hers"

That quote is actually in reference to Hetton's power, not Bane's. Zannah is very well in the know she isn't close to Bane in power as of ROT. 

"He began to gather the dark side, the power slowly building. But before he could unleash it he was hit by a wall of thunderous force rolling out from a corridor to his left. Instinctively he threw up a defensive shield, absorbing the blow."

Post what comes immediately after:

"Despite this, he was slammed against the opposite wall, knocking the breath from his lungs." 

Now it's true that Bane was still weakened by the lingering effects of the drugs in his system, but this is a blatant example of selective omission. I agree Zannah can't easily TK if he's focused and prepared or she would have spammed it in their first duel, but then again it's been established by this very trilogy even a substantially weaker Force user is capable of repelling Force pushes from the more powerful opponent, eg Bane and Kas'im. 

As for failing to absorb the impact from being sent flying by the energy shield, Bane isn't noted to either, so it's not a good counterexample. 

3. Agreed that Gravid may not have been at his best when Gean killed him, but it doesn't preclude her growing more powerful than him in his prime which is consistent both thematically and with the OOU quotes that say each generation did. 

4. "And yet, while all Sith Lords were powerful, not all were brilliant or in complete possession of the powers the dark side granted them."

Interesting, do you have the name of the source? Is it from Darth Plagueis? Personally, I don't think the ROT was a massive increase each generation if each generation only grew a small but noticeable amount it's still enough to reach Tenebrous and Plagueis's level, who by feats and achievements alone are clearly above Bane and Zannah by a sizable amount. Nor do I think it was an upward swing in ALL areas: Bane, for example, is still a superior duelist to Zannah, and it's implied only Sidious was a better master of subterfuge than Bane.

Darth Plagueis wrote:And yet the arrangement was as it should be, for Sidious had a gift for subterfuge that surpassed the talents of any of the Sith Lords who had preceded him, including Bane.

I don't see how anyone can interpret that DOE passage to mean his "power" got transferred to Zannah

Just read [1] and you will see this theory.

As for failing to absorb the impact from being sent flying by the energy shield, Bane isn't noted to either, so it's not a good counterexample. 

It seems to my point that Bane was trying to create some distance between Zannah and him so this is the reason why he decided not to remain.

her growing more powerful than him in his prime which is consistent both thematically and with the OOU quotes that say each generation did.

For the quotes just go to the misconception 4. 

Interesting, do you have the name of the source?

Darth Plagueis novel.

Personally, I don't think the ROT was a massive increase each generation if each generation only grew a small but noticeable amount it's still enough to reach Tenebrous and Plagueis's level, who by feats and achievements alone are clearly above Bane and Zannah by a sizable amount

I agree on the fact that Tenebrous and Plagueis are above Bane and Zannah. I prefer to think that sometimes the RoT sometimes works and sometimes not, the increase and decrease aren't linear (but globaly there is an increase of power) which can explain the level of power of Plagueis and Tenebrous.

Interesting post. Some parts I'd disagree with:

xolthol wrote:Gean kill him with her bare hand, not with some force power. If she have been more powerful than Gravid she should have killed him with some force attack such as TK or something else. Here she just use her bare hands... clearly not a proof of her force superiority, but rather the fact that she is a better fighter than a mad man.

Eh, it's actually pretty difficult to defeat someone who has any sort of parity with you purely through Force attacks, and so grappling is plausible (e.g. Mustafar Vader vs. Obi Wan).

So clearly we have no reasons for thinking that the victory of Gean over Gravid is the proof of the the rule of two always succeed.

OK, but where is it demonstrated that it led to a loss of power? We have two OOU sources explicitly saying that power increased with each generation. Why would Gravid's destruction of teachings like essence transfer affect that? Did he destroy manuscripts on how to use TK or something?

This is clearly one of the most forgotten part of the Rule of Two. Even though it was finally a sucess, this wasn't a success at each stage. This is clearly shown here:
"Like Plagueis, Tenebrous had obviously embraced the fact that Darth Bane's Rule of Two had expired. Precious few Sith Lords had honored it,in any case, and with good reason, as Plagueis saw it. The goals of the Grand Plan were revenge and the reacquisition of galactic power. But while most Sith Lords since Bane had in their own fashion helped to weaken the Republic, their efforts had owed less to selflessness and allegiance to the Rule than to weakness and incompetence. Driven to discharge Bane's imperative they might have been, and yet each had fallen prey to individual foibles and eccentricities, and so had failed to exact revenge on the the Jedi Order."

Even if Plagueis is correct, here he's talking about strategy and maneuvering, not power levels.

"And yet, while all Sith Lords were powerful, not all were brilliant or in complete possession of the powers the dark side granted them."

This vague IU statement is far from definitive enough to contradict the OOU statements to the contrary - they could not be in complete possession of the powers "the dark side granted them" and still be overall more powerful than their predecessor, even if their predecessor had complete possession of a smaller potential.

From a simple statistical point of view, there is zero reason for the birth each 33 years (in order to have around 30 sith lords over one thousand years) of a being with more power than every one before him (the futur apprentice) and this for 1000 years whithout any interference from the jedi (they are also looking for every single Force sensitive).

The dark side was also stronger stronger over those centuries, and indeed Bane suspected that the dark side had led him to Zannah (and then Plagueis suspected the dark side had birthed Palpatine), and as you acknowledged the apprentices were getting power boosts from their masters' deaths, so it's not just a matter of lottery.

Because of this, we have also that match-up between the PT era and Bane era are possible and no one can said "because of the Banite scaling, this PT guy stomp this Bane-era guy".

Well, we could also say that Sidious is sufficiently far above most combatants in the PT that Banite scaling doesn't even establish Bane is definitively below Dooku.

I'll give this a read later.

The Banites having a sort of exponential growth has never made sense to me. Good blog, @xolthol.

What also has to be considered is the point of Bane's task in DOE.

He knew that if Zannah failed him as an apprentice that by the time he finished training another he would be well past his prime, which is why he sought out and discovered the secret of essence transfer, as a safeguard for the Banites to prevent them from aging past their primes in case it would otherwise take too long for them to find a successor capable of vaniquishing them.

That secret was lost after Gravid, which further calls into question just how many Banite Masters were already equal or beyond the peak of their master at the time of their succession to the mantle of master.

I don’t think it can be argued against really; it’s stated clearly that ultimately each generation was more powerful than the last. The only thing you can really debate is the power gaps themselves.

@The Ellimist

it's actually pretty difficult to defeat someone who has any sort of parity with you purely through Force attacks, and so grappling is plausible

Knowing that Gravid is mad, so that he isn't at his peak in term of combat viability, I honestly doubt that we have any parity between him and Gean...

OK, but where is it demonstrated that it led to a loss of power? We have two OOU sources explicitly saying that power increased with each generation.

For the OOU quotes I will adress this further. If we have that Gravid is more powerful than Gean at the time of his death, this means that the gap of power that Gean must fill in is pretty important and we haven't any direct proof that she succeed doing this.

Even if Plagueis is correct, here he's talking about strategy and maneuvering, not power levels.

I begged your pardon but what made you think that Plagueis talks only about strategy and maneuvering. 

Darth Bane's Rule of Two had expired : it seems to refer to the fact that there isn't a growth at each generation, refering to power.


their efforts had owed [...]  to weakness and incompetence : I fail to see why weakness here doesn't refer to power

This vague IU statement is far from definitive enough to contradict the OOU statements to the contrary - they could not be in complete possession of the powers "the dark side granted them" and still be overall more powerful than their predecessor, even if their predecessor had complete possession of a smaller potential

Yes but with the previous quotes, this further empathize the fact that they aren't necessarly as powerful as their predecessors. In addition, even though they could have a bigger potential than their masters, if they didn't reach their full potential theywon't be necessarly more powerful than their masters.

The dark side was also stronger stronger over those centuries, and indeed Bane suspected that the dark side had led him to Zannah

To my knowledge, the dark side was growing stronger only after what Tenebrous master did. Before there wasn't any trace of the DS at a galactic level:
One hundred years earlier, Tenebrous's Twi'lek Master had opened a small rend in the fabric of the Force, allowing the dark side to be felt by the Jedi Order for the first time in more than eight hundred years. 


So have you some proof that the DS was stronger over these century ?

the apprentices were getting power boosts from their masters' deaths, so it's not just a matter of lottery

Indeed, they are. But this just explain the fact that they grow stronger that what they were before, not that they become more powerful than their masters at the time of their deaths.

we could also say that Sidious is sufficiently far above most combatants in the PT that Banite scaling doesn't even establish Bane is definitively below Dooku.

While I agree on this fact, its seems that if we go in this direction this will make the gap between Dooku and Sidious absolutely insane. While I agree that this gap is big, maybe not to this point. And by following your logic, this will put Dooku below lots of Banite siths, something which I didn't necessarly agree.

@The Ellimist @O-Siri @Meatpants

In addition to this, the first OOU quotes can be questioned in his validity or at least in his sense: 
"As they gained knowledge of the dark side of the Force, their powers increased with each generation."


Knowing that Gravid have destroy half of the knowledge of the Sith, we can have two interpretations of this quote:

1°) This quote isn't true at all, because they didn't gained knowledge at each generation
2°) This quote implied that they increase their power only when they increased their knowledge.

In both case, this supported my theory about a relative sucess of the RoT.

Well it's revealed that the real knowledge is passed down between master and apprentice in unrecorded training sessions; the implication being that the lore they possessed was only secondary to their power.

Meatpants wrote:I don’t think it can be argued against really; it’s stated clearly that ultimately each generation was more powerful than the last. The only thing you can really debate is the power gaps themselves.

I'm not sure if that was addressed to me, but really moreso the point I was making is that yes, a post gravid master at their peak is more powerful than their master at their peak... yet if for loss of essence transfer said predecessor was past their prime at the time of their defeat, then was their apprentice above their peak self at the time they succeeded them? Because that is ultimately relative to the gap.

@xolthol

I'm aware of the theory, I've read and commented on that blog. The quote about Bane's power is taken too literally. And the DoE passage is clearly in reference to Bane's attempt at essence transfer, not his literal power being transferred to Zannah. That's what Cognus is witnessing and why she thinks Zannah is Bane, before the latter corrects her.

Meatpants wrote:Well it's revealed that the real knowledge is passed down between master and apprentice in unrecorded training sessions; the implication being that the lore they possessed was only secondary to their power.

What do you call "real knowledge" ? Do you really think that most of the knowledge they get is from telling rather than studying ? While I can agree than for the basis it seems pretty obvious, for more complex thing it seems more logic to learn by studying by yourself with archives and holocrons. If not, what's the point of harnessing such knowledge ? Having a huge library ?

Doesn't change the fact that their most powerful member was still pathetically weak to the ultimate force: gravity. 

BreakofDawn wrote:Doesn't change the fact that their most powerful member was still pathetically weak to the ultimate force: gravity. 

Couldn't even fly like Dooku. 
Dooku>>>>RotJ Sidious.

10 YO Zannah>>>>ROTJ Sidious confirmed.