Darth Bane vs. Arcann

Azronger wrote:

DarthAnt66 wrote:

 but the issue arises in that the depiction in KotOR aligns much more closely with how it is in TOR, and we do know that is the same temple that Bane visited. That makes it much more debatable and nebulous.

Perhaps some Rakata completely rebuilt the temple after the events of SWTOR? We only ever see the start of the bombardment, but Theron notes Revan "laid waste" to it.

Does he? Quote?

"The way Revan was laying waste to that place, I wasn't sure you'd come out of it in one piece."

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/lay+waste+to

DarthAnt66 wrote:

Azronger wrote:

DarthAnt66 wrote:

 but the issue arises in that the depiction in KotOR aligns much more closely with how it is in TOR, and we do know that is the same temple that Bane visited. That makes it much more debatable and nebulous.

Perhaps some Rakata completely rebuilt the temple after the events of SWTOR? We only ever see the start of the bombardment, but Theron notes Revan "laid waste" to it.

Does he? Quote?

"The way Revan was laying waste to that place, I wasn't sure you'd come out of it in one piece."

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/lay+waste+to

Just to validate the quote: https://youtu.be/NiqYSWLnWvo?t=2549

Praxis wrote:

DarthAnt66 wrote:

Azronger wrote:

DarthAnt66 wrote:

 but the issue arises in that the depiction in KotOR aligns much more closely with how it is in TOR, and we do know that is the same temple that Bane visited. That makes it much more debatable and nebulous.

Perhaps some Rakata completely rebuilt the temple after the events of SWTOR? We only ever see the start of the bombardment, but Theron notes Revan "laid waste" to it.

Does he? Quote?

"The way Revan was laying waste to that place, I wasn't sure you'd come out of it in one piece."

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/lay+waste+to

Just to validate the quote: https://youtu.be/NiqYSWLnWvo?t=2549

Thanks. It's now more likely that the Temple was simply destroyed by Revan's bombardment and rebuilt in the following millennia. However, I'd still point out that Bane's Force wave shook the very foundations of the Temple, which extended deep underground. Seeing as the Temple used to be much bigger in the past (I doubt the subterranean parts were destroyed), it adds extra oomph to the feat.

@Azronger from SWTOR codex it is known that the temple that we saw in the game was the same as in KotOR. Essential Atlas points to an ancient temple of the same name, and it was destroyed by Bane. At the same time, we know for sure that the temple in PoD is the same temple as in KotOR. Accordingly, in all three cases we saw the same building.


And in all three sources the temple is depicted in different ways, but between KotOR and SWTOR it was definitely not rebuilt. I think that all this is just a different vision of authors and designers, and a newer view of the temple in SWTOR should be taken into account. Even if the reconstruction of the temple took place, I’m not sure that it was made less durable. In any case, this is a good feat.

Shioz wrote:@Azronger from SWTOR codex it is known that the temple that we saw in the game was the same as in KotOR. Essential Atlas points to an ancient temple of the same name, and it was destroyed by Bane. At the same time, we know for sure that the temple in PoD is the same temple as in KotOR. Accordingly, in all three cases we saw the same building.


And in all three sources the temple is depicted in different ways, but between KotOR and SWTOR it was definitely not rebuilt. I think that all this is just a different vision of authors and designers, and a newer view of the temple in SWTOR should be taken into account. Even if the reconstruction of the temple took place, I’m not sure that it was made less durable. In any case, this is a good feat.

While I ordinarily would favor the most recent depiction of something i.e. TOR in this instance, I feel there is enough evidence to suggest the Temple was destroyed and rebuilt, meaning Bane didn't collapse anything as big as the edifice we see in TOR. Still, I agree it's a good feat for him.

@Azronger

However, I'd like to see Heskal ragdolling Senya - I don't remember that happening

Just see here : [19:35 - 19:41]. You can clearly see, Heskall jumping from his location in front of a Senya (who is ready to fight), then disarming her with TK and them tossing her around with a clear ease.

And as for Arcann choking Heskal, we don't know what happened prior to that, so I'm not sure it's a valid showing

If you see the scene here [3:26 - 3:50], we can see that there is a bunch of corpse and only Heskall who seems immobile. Seconds latters we see that Arcann is clearly holding him whitout any efforts. I didn't know what made you said that it isn't valid. Care to elaborate ?

Anyway, I don't see why is this objectively better than anything Bane has. I can show feats for Bane in the lightning, telepathy resistance, and Force augmentation department Arcann hasn't matched. Simply because Arcann boasts better telekinesis scaling doesn't make him more powerful by default.

Indeed, this is just a good way to show his sheer power. I agree on the fact that this isn't possible to compare too differents feat. 

However, I'd still point out that Bane's Force wave shook the very foundations of the Temple, which extended deep underground. Seeing as the Temple used to be much bigger in the past (I doubt the subterranean parts were destroyed), it adds extra oomph to the feat

I didn't fully agree with that. Indeed, this is a good feat but the fact that the very foundation of the Temple was shook isn't suc a great thing. To understand this a simple comparison can be made. Take a mine bar and dig it into the ground. Then take a hammer and strike with more or less strenght on the top of the bar. The bar will be shook up to its basement because of the rigidity of the bar. The same can be said with the temple's foundation. 
So this isn't so relevant because the fact that the foundation was shook seemed pretty logic when you see what sort of damage Bane do to the temple. 

Now this feat is still less impressive (in term of sheer TK showing) than the lifting scaling chain. Because this blast didn't need to destroy all of the temple. It just need to break enough of the bearing walls/pillars in order to let the remain of the temple to falling apart.

CASE FOR ARCANN:


Now I will try to show why Arcann can defeat Bane. 

1°) Insane durability

Arcann have one of the best shielding/resilience capacity in the mytho. 

With all of this feats and accolade in term of resilience, Bane would need to do an insane amount of damage in order to kill Arcann. 

2°) TK power

My previous post and the start of this one speaks for themself, I didn't need to add anything here.

3°) Skills with the blade


One of the best feat for Arcann is his matching of the Hero of Tython during their differents encounters. This is impressive knowing how a good duelist was the Outlander:

Your former Masters praise your combat skills. They say you're becoming an expert duelist (Derrin Weller)

The Hero of Tython. Your martial skills are legendary (The Old Republic)

As one of the most impressive feat for the HoT we have the fact that he defeat Lord Scourge [1] . This is really impressive knowing that before being increase by Vitiate [*] Scourge was already the equal of Meetra Surik [**], someone skilled enough to defeat on a DS nexus Darth Traya who is more powerful than her [***] . 

[*]There was only one Scourge, his life prolonged by Sith alchemy, and his battle prowess enhance by the Emperor Star Wars The Old Republic Encyclopedia

[**]Part of him wanted to leap into the fray: battling this Jedi would be a true test of his skills. He didn’t know which of them would prove the stronger, but he was intrigued by the challenge Star Wars The Old Republic Revan

[***]Although Traya was more powerful, the Exile managed to defeat her in combat. The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia


Now we have this scaling chain (in term of fighting skill) : Arcann ~ HoT > HoT (Act II) >> Scourge (Wrath) >> Scourge (Revan Novel) ~ Meetra Surik. 


So clearly, Arcann have more than good skills with a lightsaber.

4°) Conclusion

As I have shown above, Arcann will have no difficulty to defeat Bane. He have more than enough durability to tank everything that Bane can put on the table, couple with an insanely powerful TK (that he have repeatedly use during his fight, incorporating it inside his lightsaber sequences) and a great skills with a blade. 

I am now waiting for the Bane side for any clear argument that could explain how Bane could defeat Arcann....

xolthol wrote:Just see here : [19:35 - 19:41]. You can clearly see, Heskall jumping from his location in front of a Senya (who is ready to fight), then disarming her with TK and them tossing her around with a clear ease.

Hmm, seems fair. Heskal may even have ruptured Senya’s organs given the crunch sounds and the fact that she was incapacitated from being tossed to the ground relatively harmlessly. Him giving a challenge to the Outlander cements him as a powerhouse.

If you see the scene here [3:26 - 3:50], we can see that there is a bunch of corpse and only Heskall who seems immobile. Seconds latters we see that Arcann is clearly holding him whitout any efforts. I didn't know what made you said that it isn't valid. Care to elaborate ?

Because Arcann says ”I was invited. Heskal arranged all of this. The fool.” And that ”He believed it was his destiny to betray you.” Heskal confirms all of this at 9:30 in the video you cited. And the setup of the scene makes it look like Heskal was the one who killed the Scions, not Arcann; he’s not even facing in Arcann’s direction, so he evidently wasn’t locked in combat with or attempting to resist him. And he conveniently only gets choked as the Outlander enters the room despite Arcann being in the room long before that.

Regardless, Heskal lost to the Outlander a few chapters back, so he’s still Arcann’s substantial inferior. Your scaling chain is valid on the whole, but the point about Arcann choking Heskal can be called into question.

I didn't fully agree with that. Indeed, this is a good feat but the fact that the very foundation of the Temple was shook isn't suc a great thing. To understand this a simple comparison can be made. Take a mine bar and dig it into the ground. Then take a hammer and strike with more or less strenght on the top of the bar. The bar will be shook up to its basement because of the rigidity of the bar. The same can be said with the temple's foundation.
So this isn't so relevant because the fact that the foundation was shook seemed pretty logic when you see what sort of damage Bane do to the temple.

Sorry, I don’t get what you’re saying.

→ Valkorion unleashed a powerful lightning strike on his son who is just knock-out for a little amount of time. This is impressive knowing that the same blast kill Marr who is the most powerful sith of the Empire, only equal by Satele Shan. So he is factually far above this two (and by logic above all Jedi and Sith). The interesting thing here is that he didn’t absorb the lightning with his lightsaber but received the full power of the strike before having the time to create some protections. Only his passive defense should have worked. Indeed, Arcann in this scene was just trying to kill his father by a surprise attack so he wasn’t ready for the retaliation of Valkorion. I just let you imagine what amount of power he can resist ready to face an attack. Basically, I higly doubt that Bane could kill him with his lightning except if you think that his lighting are more powerful than the one of Valkorion.

Considering Vaylin’s lightning could turn the Outlander to ash in KotET Chapter 7, Valkorion clearly wasn’t exerting himself to the fullest against Arcann lest his son turn into a pile of smoking cinders himself. You can have your inference that Arcann’s more durable than Darth Marr, but beyond that the feat is impossible to quantify.

Regardless, Bane’s feats are better. He tanked his own Force lightning, while his muscles were spasming so much his body was on the verge of being ripped apart, and while his flesh and bones were being chewed on by crustaceans, yet only passing out after said crustaceans released chemicals that started dissolving his body on the cellular level… and he still survived.

Zannah felt the gathering dark side power of her Master, but in the instant before he unleashed the storm of deadly purple lightning, the Ithorian reached up from the floor and clutched him by his ankle. A shimmering blue globe surrounded them both as the mortally wounded Jedi released his own power in his final, dying act.

Instead of arcing across the room to destroy the one-armed Jedi, the lightning that flew from Bane's fingers reflected off the inside of the shimmering blue globe encasing him. The bolts ricocheted around wildly inside the globe, creating a storm of energy so intense that Zannah had to shield her eyes and look away. She heard Bane's scream rising above the sharp crackle of electricity, and when she looked back she saw the globe vanish and her Master fall to the ground in a charred and smoking heap.


When Zannah first reached Bane's side, she was sure her Master was dead. The lightning had reduced his clothes to ash, and his gloves and boots had melted away. The flesh of his face and hands was charred and burned, covered with blisters that oozed a runny yellow pus. Several of the parasites on his chest and stomach hadn't survived, their brown shells turned black and brittle by the lightning's electrical charge. Wisps of still-smoldering smoke crept out from beneath their shells, bringing with it a sickly stench that made Zannah's stomach churn.

Then she saw Bane's chest rise and fall, his breaths so shallow and faint she had almost missed them. He must have slipped into unconsciousness as his body went into shock from the unbearable pain. She paused, half expecting to see his seared skin and tissue begin to regenerate, but his injuries exceeded even the ability of the orbalisks to heal him, and nothing happened.


He recognized the voice of his apprentice, and his mind slowly began to reassemble the pieces of what had happened. He remembered the battle with the Jedi on Tython; he remembered unleashing a storm of Force lightning at the last of his foes. He remembered the kriffing shield the Ithorian Master had thrown up around him. After that, all his memories were of unbearable pain.

Somehow the Jedi's barrier had trapped Bane inside the center of the dark side storm. The electricity had enveloped him, millions of volts arcing through his body, cooking his flesh from the inside and throwing his muscles into an endless series of violent seizures that threatened to rip his body apart.

The energy had coursed through the orbalisks embedded in his skin, too. The creatures absorbed the power, hungrily devouring it until they became so engorged that the soft, pliant flesh of their underbellies had began to swell. Squeezed ever tighter against the unyielding chitin of their own exterior shells, they'd begun to burrow deeper into Bane. He remembered screaming as thousands of tiny teeth started sawing away at subcutaneous tissue, chewing through muscles, tendons, and even bone.

But burrowing deeper hadn't stopped the creatures from feasting on the electricity coursing through Bane's frying innards. They'd continued to expand until they had begun to pop, rupturing like overfilled balloons pinched beneath the hard shells.

Bane had stayed conscious through the torture of the electricity cooking him alive and the agony of the teeth burrowing into his flesh. But the indescribable pain from the chemicals released by the exploding orbalisks dissolving his body on a cellular level finally caused him to black out … only to wake up here.


The important thing to note here of course is that the orbalisks were ”turned black and brittle by the lightning's electrical charge” despite them being lightning-resistant. That’s right – Bane’s lightning is hotter than lightsaber plasma. You might attempt to counter by arguing the orbalisks are vulnerable to electricity but this is untrue. The orbalisks merely let the lightning course through them more easily, making them bad protection in that sense, but there’s no evidence the shells themselves have a weakness towards electrical discharge.

The remaining five struck Bane almost simultaneously, their force pikes sending a million volts of current through his body. The orbalisks absorbed most of the charge, but enough filtered through to jolt him from his teeth down to his toes.


It actually works in Bane’s favor here: the lightning would have gotten through the orbalisk’s defense and hit his unprotected skin. The text even notes there were “millions of volts arcing through his body, cooking his flesh from the inside” and ”coursing through Bane’s frying innards.” Note that Bane had channeled the majority of his power into the lightning, not into his Force defense, so, like Arcann, he would have been enduring it only with his passive barrier. But unlike Arcann, he stayed conscious even with the added agony of having his muscles spasming so much they ”threatened to rip his body apart” and having ” thousands of tiny teeth” “sawing away at subcutaneous tissue, chewing through muscles, tendons, and even bone.” Arcann instantly passed out from a single burst of lightning hitting him for a fraction of a second. Granted, we don’t know the intensity of Valkorion’s attack, so I can’t definitively say this puts Bane above Arcann in the willpower department, but it certainly shifts the burden of proof to Arcann’s supporters to come up with anything better than this, though.

And it still gets better for Bane, too:

Bane saw the strange black mist crawling across the dirt and knew this was no illusion. Somehow Zannah had given substance and corporeality to the dark side, transforming it into half a dozen shadowy, serpent-like minions rising up from the ground.

Suddenly the tendrils flew at him. He slashed out with his lightsaber to chop the closest one in half, but the blade simply passed through the black mist with no effect. Bane threw himself to the side, but the tip of the tentacle still brushed against his left shoulder.

The material of his clothes melted away as if it had been splashed with acid. A chunk of flesh beneath simply dissolved, and Bane screamed in agony.

Once, orbalisks had fused themselves to his body with a burning chemical compound so intense it had nearly driven him mad. Ten years ago they had been removed when Bane's flesh had been literally cooked by a concentrated blast of his own violet lightning. During her interrogation, Serra had pumped him full of a drug that had felt like it was eating him alive from the inside. But the excruciating pain he felt from the mere touch of the dark side tendril was unlike anything Bane had ever experienced before.

The damage was far from life threatening, but it nearly sent Bane into shock. He fell hard to the ground, his jaw slack and his eyes rolling back into his head. His mind was reeling from the brief contact. The pain radiated through every nerve in his body, but what he felt went far beyond any mere physical sensation. It was not the raw heat of the dark side but rather the empty chill of the void itself spreading through him. It touched every synapse in his mind, it clawed at the core of his spirit. In that instant he tasted utter annihilation, and felt the true horror of absolute nothingness.

Somehow he managed to stay conscious, and when the next tentacle coiled in he was able to scramble to his feet and roll out of the way.


The text explicitly compares the sensation of the dark side tendril brushing his shoulder with all the instances where Bane has been in abject agony, including the time he was hit with his own lightning, had his muscles spasming so much his body was almost ripped apart, and had the orbalisks chewing on his flesh and bones before finally passing out from the chemicals that were dissolving his body from within on the cellular level. Yet his brief contact with the tendrils was even more painful than that and he stayed conscious despite that, making his willpower as of Dynasty of Evil greater than in Rule of Two. It should also be noted that the tendrils were the dark side given ”substance and corporeality” and touching them ”went far beyond physical sensation,” feeling like ”the empty chill of the void spreading through him,” ”utter annihilation,” “the true horror of absolute nothingness” clawing ”at the core of his spirit.” Ergo, it’s literally the void of the dark side beyond death given physical form.

Bane’s willpower goes even beyond that, though:

With his foe unarmed and helpless at his feet Bane brought his arm down for the coup de grace, only to have it intercepted mid-swing by one of the dark side tendrils. It wrapped itself around the elbow. Skin, muscle, sinew and bone dissolved instantaneously, severing the limb.

His disembodied forearm and fist tumbled harmlessly to the ground, his lightsaber flicking off as the hilt slid from his suddenly nerveless fingers. The Dark Lord didn't scream this time; the pain was so intense it left him mute as he collapsed to the ground.

Everything went black. Blind and alone, he felt the void closing in. In desperation he reached out with his left hand, clutching Zannah's wrist as she lay on the ground beside him. With his last act, he summoned all his remaining power and invoked the ritual of essence transfer.


When Bane is hit with even more intense pain and having his arm disintegrated, he still has enough willpower and clarity of mind to invoke a highly complex and esoteric Force technique in essence transfer. Again, in Rule of Two, he passed out from significantly lesser pain. Given willpower strongly correlates with Force power, this would make DoE Bane even stronger than RoT orbalisk Bane, meaning his lightning should be much more potent than lightsaber plasma.

Comparatively, Arcann’s charged lightning attack couldn’t melt HK-55’s metal chassis. Now, we don’t know how durable HK is, so once again, Bane’s feat doesn’t definitively but him above Arcann, but it does shift the burden of proof to the other side to come up with something better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crMUhvb1NJE&t=375s

→ After his second fight against the Outlander (on Asylum) he resist for an extent period of time the force lightning of his father. When you see the damage inflicted by the part of the attack that have been redirected by Arcann (IE: killing every single life around the top of the tower), you can easily imagine what is the power of this strike fully focused on Arcann.

The part of Valkorion’s attack that disabled the ships wasn’t redirected by Arcann. You can see the lightning is unfocused and flying all over the place before it even hits Arcann. As with the above feat, you can quantify how much energy he actually blocked.

On the other hand, Bane has blocked a lightsaber strike with a Force barrier.

They reached the end of the hall, and Zannah thought she had Bane trapped. This time she used her lightsaber to slap aside the violet bolts of lightning rather than trying to absorb them and stumbling back. Bane still had one more trick up his sleeve, however.

She was less than a meter away, her blade already slashing in for the killing blow, when she felt all the hair on the back of her neck rise. A shimmering purple cocoon of dark side energy enveloped Bane, a fragile shell holding back a storm of pure power.

She tried to pull back but it was too late. As her blade bit into the cocoon the energy was released in a sudden burst that sent both of them flying backward. Bane slammed hard into the wall against his back and crumpled to the ground. Zannah was tossed ten meters farther, landing hard on the stone floor.

They rose to their feet at the same time, neither seriously injured. But yet again Bane had managed to thwart her attack and work himself out of a corner.


You could try to counter by saying that the barrier exploded and Bane was hurled back and thus his defense was imperfect, but the whole point of the move was to put distance between himself and Zannah. Simply blocking the strike wouldn’t have done that.

→ Just after, when his force barrier fail, he fall from the top of the building. But he managed to survive without any scrap and the only thing that he mentioned while meeting Vaylin is that Valkorion have been weakened. Just to give you an idea of the size of the building, this is the highest on Asylum and it is vastly above the other. Just to draw a simple comparison, when Ventress faced Anakin on Corruscant and was throw into the deep of it (not from the surface but from a low level), she was put in a bacta tank in order to survive and was in an awful condition. And in this fight she hadn’t tank a huge lightning strike from Anakin so she is in better shape than Arcann when this latter fall.

We don’t know if Arcann woke up mid-fall, so it’s impossible to say he impressive the feat is. He could have slowed down his descent like Aryn Leneer did when she fell hundreds of meters.

The balloon of her power slowed them further. She could see benches in the plaza, a fountain. She could distinguish individual windows in the skyrises around them. They were five hundred meters up and still falling fast.

The pressure in her brain intensified. Her vision blurred. The ache in her head became a knife stab of pain. She screamed but held on, held on.

Four hundred meters. Three hundred.

They slowed still more and Aryn feared she could not bear it anymore.

Two hundred.

A second stretched into an eternity of pain and pressure. She thought she must burst.

"Hang on, Aryn!" Zeerid said, his voice muffled by the mask. He was rigid in her arms.

Fifty meters.

They were still going too fast.

Twenty, ten.

She dug deep, pulled out whatever power she could, and expended it in a final shout, an expulsion of power that entirely arrested their descent for a moment. They hung in the air for a fraction of a second, suspended only by the invisible power of the Force and Aryn's ability to use it.

And then they were falling free.

She released Zeerid and they both hit the duracrete feetfirst, the shock of impact sending jolts of pain up Aryn's ankles and calves. She rode the momentum of the fall into a roll that knocked the wind from her and tore a divot of skin from her scalp.

But she was alive.

→ In his last battle with the Outlander (in the last Chapter of KotFE) he managed to survive some lightsaber strike in the chest. The context here is crucial to understand why this is an impressive feat. This happened at the end of a confrontation with the Outlander and this have been a long one which have tired Arcann (just hear the way he talked to his enemy). He know that he is defeated by the Outlander (he isn’t in his best mental state). He exchanged some strikes with his nemesis and then he is strike in the chest. An interesting thing is that is exactly the same type of strike that kill Kit Fisto in RotS.

We don’t know how deep it cut, and that blow ended the fight anyway. He backs away from the Outlander and after he still collapses to his knee, clutching his wound. If Bane ever got a hit like that in, it would signal his victory even if Arcann survived.

And if Arcann is down from a single lightsaber strike like that, he would get obliterated by having lightning more potent than lightsaber plasma surging through his body like Bane did. Honestly, if Bane successfully hits him with a lightning blast, he’s done for.

→ But this isn’t over, after this he was buried under pieces of his ship. Even though we didn’t precisely know what happened we can understand that this have been powerful enough to break his mechanic arm. And remember in what condition he his: tired, surprise by his defeat and the treason of Scorpion, heavily wounded on the chest and now buried. Clearly this is one of the most impressive feat in term of resilience that we have.

I don’t deny his survival is impressive but it doesn’t have any practical application in combat.

→ In addition to all of this feat, we have also this quote :

Arcann's prodigious skill with the Force and training with both the Knights and Scions of Zakuul gives him a nearly unbeatable defense

With all of this feats and accolade in term of resilience, Bane would need to do an insane amount of damage in order to kill Arcann.

What is the context of this statement? Can I see a screenshot or a link? If it’s in the context of his fight with the Outlander, then it would only mean his defense is ”nearly unbeatable” for the Outlander, not necessarily Bane.

3°) Skills with the blade


One of the best feat for Arcann is his matching of the Hero of Tython during their differents encounters. This is impressive knowing how a good duelist was the Outlander:

Your former Masters praise your combat skills. They say you're becoming an expert duelist (Derrin Weller)

The Hero of Tython. Your martial skills are legendary (The Old Republic)

As one of the most impressive feat for the HoT we have the fact that he defeat Lord Scourge [1] . This is really impressive knowing that before being increase by Vitiate
[*] Scourge was already the equal of Meetra Surik [**], someone skilled enough to defeat on a DS nexus Darth Traya who is more powerful than her [***] .

[*]There was only one Scourge, his life prolonged by Sith alchemy, and his battle prowess enhance by the Emperor Star Wars The Old Republic Encyclopedia

[**]Part of him wanted to leap into the fray: battling this Jedi would be a true test of his skills. He didn’t know which of them would prove the stronger, but he was intrigued by the challenge Star Wars The Old Republic Revan

[***]Although Traya was more powerful, the Exile managed to defeat her in combat. The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia


Now we have this scaling chain (in term of fighting skill) : Arcann ~ HoT > HoT (Act II) >> Scourge (Wrath) >> Scourge (Revan Novel) ~ Meetra Surik.


So clearly, Arcann have more than good skills with a lightsaber.

You’re wrong about the Hero of Tython beating Scourge. They stalemated and Scourge broke off the engagement before there was any victor.



And you haven’t tied any of this to Bane. You haven explained why Scourge and Meetra are relevant. How does being above them put Arcann above Bane, who has this:

1. KORRIBAN SITH STUDENT / KIEL CHARNY: Each student at the Korriban academy had the potential to become a full Sith Master in the Brotherhood of Darkness. Most had been training every since childhood with Sith Master-tier potential, and for many it took years to even get accepted into the Korriban academy (link). This would mean they had been studying in one of the other academies, and since their potential set them apart, they’re likely superior to the Sith marauders, assassins and adepts, each of whom have their own minor accolades. The Korriban apprentices were also noted to stronger than half the Dark Lords on Ruusan (link). / Kiel Charny was noted to be a “champion” among the Jedi, listed alongside Lord Hoth, and “a true warrior who epitomized the Jedi ideal” (link).
   
2. GITHANY: During her stay in the Korriban academy, Githany developed a reputation for “crushing” her opponents in the dueling ring (link), meaning she would’ve repeatedly stomped the above students there. She also quickly defeated Kiel Charny when they fought (link). One might dismiss her victory to be the result of Charny’s lack of willingness to fight, but that would only hinder his offence, not defence, and doesn’t excuse his swift loss. Githany’s unorthodox whip also wouldn’t have factored in much, as the two had trained together in their youth as Jedi (link), and Charny would’ve undoubtedly been exposed to the weapon’s intricacies and possibly even sparred against her. It might have been more of a deciding factor in Githany’s victory over the other apprentices, but most would have studied her fights and training prior to engaging her in the ring, so they wouldn’t have been completely taken off-guard. Regardless, Githany’s solid superiority to both the other students and Kiel Charny should be clear.
   
3. SIRAK: Sirak was repeatedly noted to be the Korriban academy’s top apprentice (link). When Githany proposed to Bane that she would face Sirak in the ring in hopes of manipulating him, he remarked that Sirak would destroy her, and Githany herself admitted she would lose (link). On top of that, he had never lost a match, cementing his superiority to the other students (link), and he could seamlessly shift between lightsaber forms mid-sequence and has been witnessed utilizing Form VII, making him canonically a master of all the previous forms and a “high-level master of multiple Forms” (link).
   
4. BANE: When he fought Sirak for the second time, Bane had improved immensely. His skill was such that he was able to instantly identify mistakes in Sirak’s technique and could have stomped him in a few moves. He however decided to prolong the engagement and toy with his opponent, demonstrating his vast superiority nonetheless (link).
   
5. LORD KAS’IM: In the opening exchanges of his duel with Bane, Kas’im very nearly eviscerates his opponent. He remarks with surprise that Bane had improved since they had last dueled, implying that Bane prior to unlocking the secrets of Darth Revan’s holocron and growing more powerful as a result would not have survived (link). This means that Kas’im could have speedblitzed the same Bane who toyed with and could have stomped Sirak in a few moves.
   
6. DARTH BANE (PATH OF DESTRUCTION): As their duel continues, it becomes clear that Kas’im simply cannot beat Bane due to the latter being too strong in the Force (link). Kas’im only gains the upper hand when he switched to a weapon type Bane had absolutely no experience with or against, theoretical nor practical. But in a conventional fight where the neither is unfairly disadvantaged, Bane is the superior swordsman.
   
7. DARTH BANE (RULE OF TWO): The orbalisks Bane was encrusted with pumped chemicals into his system, boosting his physical prowess to the point that he felt stronger than ever and his reflexes were quicker. And this is ignoring the fact that he could further increase his command of the Force with through the orbalisks, which would then feed his Force augmentation and speed even more (link).
   
8. DARTH BANE (DYNASTY OF EVIL): When Darth Bane travels to Dxun in Rule of Two, he is assaulted by a swarm of orbalisks. Bane attempts to bat them all aside, but deems it impossible despite also using Force telekinesis to supplement his lightsaber defence, likening the task to deflecting raindrops in a storm (link). Two decades later in [i]Dynasty of Evil Bane is seen casually warding off rain for ten minutes with such efficiency that by the downpour’s end he emerged completely dry (link). So Darth Bane’s defensive capabilities with a lightsaber as of Dynasty of Evil vastly eclipse PoD/early RoT Bane’s lightsaber and telekinetic defences combined. Then add in the fact that DoE Bane is far faster and physically stronger than even orbalisk Bane who is faster and stronger than PoD Bane (link), and we have ourselves quite a big pile of evidence indicating Bane of Dynasty of Evil is far, far beyond his earlier iterations as a lightsaber duelist.
   

Now, you might say none of this ties directly to Arcann either, and you’d be right, but 1) it shows that Bane has significant dueling talent behind him too, so the evidence for Arcann has to be extremely strong, and 2) Bane displays Force augmentation vastly greater than anything Arcann has ever demonstrated.

4°) Conclusion

As I have shown above, Arcann will have no difficulty to defeat Bane. He have more than enough durability to tank everything that Bane can put on the table, couple with an insanely powerful TK (that he have repeatedly use during his fight, incorporating it inside his lightsaber sequences) and a great skills with a blade.

I am now waiting for the Bane side for any clear argument that could explain how Bane could defeat Arcann....

No, you haven’t shown that. You’ve shown Arcann can do X. But you’ve not shown that he can defeat Bane. You agreed with me that it’s impossible to cross-compare different types of feats like telekinesis and telepathy, so why would you ignore everything Bane has going for him over Arcann and just zero in on telekinesis and durability (in which Bane outclasses Arcann, by the way)? Bane has better quantifiable feats in lightning, willpower, and physical augmentation (and durability), yet all of that is irrelevant now?

@Azronger Interresting answer, I will respond to you when having some time.

@Azronger

Because Arcann says ”I was invited. Heskal arranged all of this. The fool.” And that ”He believed it was his destiny to betray you.” Heskal confirms all of this at 9:30 in the video you cited. And the setup of the scene makes it look like Heskal was the one who killed the Scions, not Arcann; he’s not even facing in Arcann’s direction, so he evidently wasn’t locked in combat with or attempting to resist him. And he conveniently only gets choked as the Outlander enters the room despite Arcann being in the room long before that.

Regardless, Heskal lost to the Outlander a few chapters back, so he’s still Arcann’s substantial inferior. Your scaling chain is valid on the whole, but the point about Arcann choking Heskal can be called into question.

Ok I have your point even though I disagree with it. But because we agree on the validity of the scaling chain I didn't feel any need to defend more than this my point.

Sorry, I don’t get what you’re saying.

No problem, its certainly my fault (not an english speaking person...). Basically I was explaining why the fact that Bane shook the foundations of the temple wasn't so impressive. If needed, I could try to explain once again, maybe with picture.

Considering Vaylin’s lightning could turn the Outlander to ash in KotET Chapter 7, Valkorion clearly wasn’t exerting himself to the fullest against Arcann lest his son turn into a pile of smoking cinders himself. You can have your inference that Arcann’s more durable than Darth Marr, but beyond that the feat is impossible to quantify

I wasn't saying that Valkorion lightning were at full power, only that Arcann survived the same blast that instantanly killed Marr. And we know that Darth Marr is the most powerful sith of the empire at this time [1], someone with a such insane willpower that he refused to dissepear in the void after his defeat by the hand of Valkorion [2]. Knowing that the willpower is directly connected with the strenght in the Force we have a pretty good idea of how resilient should be Marr. Thus I agree on the fact that this isn't directly tied to Bane. 

[1] "But his desire to leave a strong Empire behind him is unquestioned, and his abilities are second to none"
[2] "Valkorion destroy my flesh but not my reason for being"  "Denying the Void's embrace...taxes me. But I will not leave our Empire undefended " "I have no use for vengeance. My goal remains the same: defend the Empire"

Regardless, Bane’s feats are better. He tanked his own Force lightning, while his muscles were spasming so much his body was on the verge of being ripped apart, and while his flesh and bones were being chewed on by crustaceans, yet only passing out after said crustaceans released chemicals that started dissolving his body on the cellular level… and he still survived

I agree on the fact that this is impressive. Nonetheless, if we look cautionly to this feat, we can divide this is three parts: 

• the damage deals by his own lightning
  
• the damaged dealed by the orbalisk digging into his flesh and bone
  
• the damaged caused by the chemical unleasehd in Bane body.
  

While this is globally an incredibly good pain tolerance feat, there is a huge difference between this feat and what happened to Arcann. Indeed, you assumed that was because of the pain that Arcann was knock-out. It is possible but it seems way less plausible than being knock-out because of a over-powering of your brain (basically what happened when you take too many electricity in your body). You have made a good point about pain tolerance/willpower (that I will adress on another part), but here I was only speaking about resilience to a lightning strike.
After understanding this, it is pretty easy to see that the only comparable part for this feat was the resistance of Bane to his own lighting. And clearly not even at their full power, knowing that the orbalisk are able to absorb part of the discharge. So this feat is clearly not as relevant as you think and a bit out of topic (on the point of comparing the resilience to a lightning strike) except if you think that Marr will have been killed by the lighting of Bane after being filtered by the orbalisk (but here, the burden of the proof is on you).

meaning his lightning should be much more potent than lightsaber plasma

This a point where I hugely disagree with you. You are making a this mistake again and again in lots of your analysis. I will try to explain what is your mistake. Basically, you are doing a wrong analysis.This isn't because something is lightsaber-proof (ie: can resist being hit by a focus photon-beam) that it is also lightning-proof (ie: can resist being hit by a chain of electron). Indeed, there is similarity being the two attacks: both increase the temperature of the thing that they hit. But the lightsaber principe is based on this increase of the heat as the way to deal dammage. For the lightning the increase of the heat is only a side effect (that we called the Joule effect) and most of the damage aren't caused by the increase of the heat but way more by the way the current flow through your body, forcing your muscles to contract and decontract randomly (particularly your heart), interferring with your brain. 

So the whole point that you are making about the lightning of Bane being more potent than his lightsaber is baseless. 

Comparatively, Arcann’s charged lightning attack couldn’t melt HK-55’s metal chassis. Now, we don’t know how durable HK is, so once again, Bane’s feat doesn’t definitively but him above Arcann, but it does shift the burden of proof to the other side to come up with something better

I agree on the fact that Arcann didn't have too many lightning feat on his own. The only idea that we have of the resilience of HK-55 isn't link to his resilience against lightning but against missiles from a war droid (who didn't even seems to focus his fire on them), at least we can say that HK resist the blast of the missile. [7:00 - 7:22]. But here again I agree that we didn't know the potency of the missile throw at him.

The part of Valkorion’s attack that disabled the ships wasn’t redirected by Arcann. You can see the lightning is unfocused and flying all over the place before it even hits Arcann. As with the above feat, you can quantify how much energy he actually blocked

Lets just have a brief look of what happened when Arcann tank Valkorion blast.

First of all, we have the unleashed of a wave of unfocused power, this power wasn't aiming at Arcann, who didn't seemed to protect himself.


Then we have a sort of explosion that engulf both of the fighters.

And just after this, we can see that Arcann is shielding himself against Force Lightning that are way bigger than before and perfectly focus at him.

We can see than during the same time, we have two sorts of attack: a wave of FL, unfocused and a concentrated burst of FL that directly hit Arcann's shield. As you can see, this shield redirect the lightning (the part in green). 

The theory of having two type of attack in the same moove is further confirm when you see the Outlander unleashing this power. (In green the focused strike of the Outlander, in yellow the diffused FL, in red Arcann shielding himself).



In the sky around the Spar, we have both the redirect FL and the unfocused FL.


Nonetheless, it seems that the things that killed most of the people are the unfocused FL [21:49 - 21:54]. 

So Arcann was able to tank a lightning strike far more powerful than the one which disable the ships. In addition to this, to have a good idea of the power that he tanked (even though we cannot precisely quantified it), just remember that the Outlander by harnessing such power (not being hit by it) was in a really bad shape up to the point that he collapsed and was knocked-out for a pretty long time.

On the other hand, Bane has blocked a lightsaber strike with a Force barrier.

Good for him... Butknowing that even a young Satele Shan (on Alderaan) was able to block a lightsaber and that Valkorion know how to block it very easily, I failed to see why Arcann couldn't know how to do this.

We don’t know if Arcann woke up mid-fall, so it’s impossible to say he impressive the feat is. He could have slowed down his descent like Aryn Leneer did when she fell hundreds of meters.

I haven't think about this possibility. Maybe you're right, maybe not. 

We don’t know how deep it cut, and that blow ended the fight anyway. He backs away from the Outlander and after he still collapses to his knee, clutching his wound. If Bane ever got a hit like that in, it would signal his victory even if Arcann survived

I think that you only take into account the last strike on Arcann. You forget that he endure strikes before this final one... Here (16:53 - 17:05/ 17:40 - 17:44) I can count two strikes and having Arcann still fighting before the final one that put him on his knee.

Honestly, if Bane successfully hits him with a lightning blast, he’s done for.

Honestly, I didn't think that Bane can produce lightning more potent that what Arcann tanked, when facing Valkorion.

What is the context of this statement? Can I see a screenshot or a link? If it’s in the context of his fight with the Outlander, then it would only mean his defense is ”nearly unbeatable” for the Outlander, not necessarily Bane.

Tbh I don't know where this comes from. I've find it in the RT of Arcann made by Ant. But I've failed to find what is the context around. I will continue to search.

You’re wrong about the Hero of Tython beating Scourge. They stalemated and Scourge broke off the engagement before there was any victor.

How does being above them put Arcann above Bane, who has this

Bump so I don't forget, and for other users to give their thoughts.

Arcann's fights with Vaylin and the HOT-lander respectively impress me more than Bane's showings, solid as they are.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Arcann's fights with Vaylin and the HOT-lander respectively impress me more than Bane's showings, solid as they are.

But why? Can you produce any meaningful connections between those and Bane's feats to firmly position Arcann above him?

I can't establish a direct limitation for Bane that Arcann has exceeded if that's what you're asking, however I do think all of Bane's best feats are more or less matched by Arcann's and those he scales off of (Talking about combat and TK feats here as I don't think anything else can really be measured and quantified, e.g Vivicar scaling).

Azronger wrote:Bump so I don't forget

Have you forget ? 

No.

I may as well bump this since it got referenced in another thread.

And for anyone wondering, no, I probably won't respond to Xolthol due to various reasons. Better be open about it than make false promises.

this is interesting. i think arcann beats him with a big power gap, but then again, he is dumber, less skilled in the force, less varied in powers, etc, than bane is.

exp= arcann imo
intelligence= bane
skill with the force= bane
powers/abilities/techniques= bane
hax shit= bane
martial skill= i wanna say bane, but its quite even tbh
strength with augmentation= arcann
strength without augmentation= bane in everything but one arm hahaha
speed with augmentation= arcann by a bit, imo
speed without augmentation= pretty even, but i think bane is faster, with only arcann's mechanical arm being a good bit faster than him
raw power= arcann, by a good bit, purely by scaling tho
durability= IF bane gets his orbalisk armor, its him by far, but if not, arcann is pretty damn tough
stamina= even imo
force application= even again imo

Bumping this since it seems to be relevant again.

yeah lol bane could beat him through skill and wits, if he cant win through power. bane considers kasim to be more skilled than exar kun and revan. arcann is, as far as i can tell, maybe more skilled than either. then bane gets the better of him. then after he defeats him, he gets better for some reason (prolly plot). then he goes and gets 10 years timeskip, in which he obviously gets more skilled (prolly far more skilled), then he gets another 10 year timeskip, in which he can accomplish feats that end of POD bane, right before he gets orbalisks, couldnt even dream of doing with his lightsaber.