Team PT vs. Team TOR

CuckedCurry wrote:I mean the answer is simple 

Would Valk be terrified of Vaylin if he could do death waves off the bat

Meatpants wrote:Gotta respect the grandma love.

NotAA3 wrote:@HellfireUnit
Your evidence for this is? I'm also pretty sure the codex says it isn't.

That's how long it takes him in-game IIRC.

Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly calculated his options. Realizing he couldn’t close the gap between them quickly enough to stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb the Emperor’s attack.
A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.
Revan's body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him.
Through the haze of indescribable pain, he saw T3-M4 rushing in to help him. The droid let loose with his flamethrower, bathing the Emperor in fire. At the last instant the Emperor cocooned himself in the Force to save himself from being incinerated, breaking his focus on Revan.
The Jedi collapsed to the ground, burned but still alive, the hilt of his extinguished lightsaber lying on the floor less than a meter beyond his grasp. -Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

The Emperor unleashed three more bolts in quick succession. Revan batted the first aside with his lightsaber, ducked the second, then deflected the third in the direction of its source.
It struck the Emperor in the chest, sending him sliding several meters back on the floor. For the first time the Sith’s emotionless veneer cracked as he let out a primal hiss of hate.

"Whispered rumors have persisted of planets snuffed out through intricate Sith rituals or by way of deadly, arcane machines--such as the device Revan sought to employ on Yavin 4--but Ziost represents a clear display of the corrosive power of the dark side of the Force taken to its extreme." -Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor.

Now this is just conjecture based on my own interpretations, but based on the JK story the ritual to consume the life in the galaxy required 2 things. A certain amount of deaths over a certain time and a huge amount of death in a short time, probably creating a disturbance in the force which Vitiate can use to feed or something.

On Ziost his spirit controls beings and then uses to kill other beings then posses more, it's a cycle until I think it reaches a point where he's able to consume the planet.


You know, this might actually be a good explanation for it. Hopefully someone will clear it up because from the Revan novel and every other source it always seemed to involve a force related ritual, no Zildrog at all, but I suppose it's possible that information could be retconned as Nyriss could've been wrong or not fully aware of what had happened.


Force ritual and the use of Zildrog aren't necessarily excluding one another. Even if Vitiate used a particular mean to end people's lives, I think he would still need to perform a ritual in order to catch the spirits of the deads. In the end, no matter said murdering means, that's not what will be remembered. People who are Force Sensitive can feel the death of a whole world through the Force... if someone siphon the energy of the population of an entire planet, someone is bound to feel it. The latter is much more troubling than the former, since there are a lot of way to effectively kill entire populations in the matter of seconds, while there isn't that much appearence of one being eating said population.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=948640

Lightning blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source.

Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.

Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me—"

This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade. -Revenge of the Sith

Maul parried the blow and reversed, coming at Sidious from the opposite side. But Sidious had already vanished, leaving Maul to lunge at the empty air. As Maul lost his balance, his body fell against the cave's wall.
Sidious said from behind Maul, "You are that pathetic. You are weak. Not worthy of being a Sith Lord. I have misjudged you."
Maul's anger burned to rage. He spun fast and swung his lightsaber again, but again he failed to strike Sidious, who moved faster than he could follow. -The Wrath of Darth Maul

Suddenly, my lightsaber is gone. It flies from my hand across the room. It lands in the hand of my Master. I never see him enter. Not if he doesn't want me to. The smile of triumph fades from my face.
"Do you think," Lord Sidious says, walking toward me, "you can ever relax your guard?"
"No, Master." What a clumsy, weak mistake. I should be prepared for him to enter at all times. How could I have forgotten that, even for a moment?
The lightsaber whirls in the air, twirling, held in my Master's hand. I can't track it, it moves so fast. But I know it's heading for me. Lord Sidious moves faster than my eye can follow. I smell heat and smoke. The laser traces the outline of my body, my face, my hands. The buzz is loud in my ear. One flinch, one involuntary twitch of a muscle, and I am dead.
I do not flinch.
At last, Lord Sidious deactivates my weapon. He tosses it toward me. The sweat on my palm almost causes me to drop it.
"Do not let me see you relax your guard again," my Master says. His eyes burn. "You are valuable, yes. But you are not indispensable, Lord Maul. I can do without you."
A flick of his robe, and he is gone. -Episode 1 Journal: Darth Maul

A fountain of amethyst energy burst from Mace Windu's fist. "Don't try to resist."
The song of his blade was echoed by green fire from the hands of Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, and Saesee Tiin. Kolar and Tiin closed on Palpatine, blocking the path to the door. Shadows dripped and oozed color, weaving and coiling up office walls slipping over chairs, spreading along the floor.
"Resist? How could I possibly resist?" Still seated at the desk Palpatine shook an empty fist helplessly, the perfect image of a tired, frightened old man. "This is murder, you Jedi traitors! How can I be any threat to you?"
He turned desperately to Saesee Tiin. "Master Tiin—you're the telepath. What am I thinking right now?" Tiin frowned and cocked his head. His blade dipped. A smear of red-flashing darkness hurtled from behind the desk. Saesee Tiin's head bounced when it hit the floor. Smoke curled from the neck, and from the twin stumps of the horns, severed just below the chin.
Kit Fisto gasped, "Saesee!"
The headless corpse, still standing, twisted as its knees buckled, and a thin sigh escaped from its trachea as it folded to the floor.
"It doesn't..." Agen Kolar swayed. His emerald blade shrank away, and the handgrip tumbled from his opening fingers. A small, neat hole in the middle of his forehead leaked smoke, showing light from the back of his head. "...hurt..." He pitched forward onto his face, and lay still. -Revenge of the Sith

Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.
The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be Palpatine? 
Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them—but he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening.

 He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. -Revenge of the Sith

Meetra was moving fast, but she was too far away to stop the Emperor from eviscerating the prone Jedi at his feet.
In desperation, she hurled her lightsaber with a wild side-arm throw. Guiding it with the Force, so that it spiraled end over end to intercept the descending blade, knocking it from the Emperor’s grasp, and sending it skittering across the floor.
Suddenly empty-handed, the Emperor took a quick step back. His attention had been focused solely on Revan; Meetra’s trick had caught him by surprise. Scourge realized that if she had aimed at the Emperor instead of the blade, she could’ve ended his life even as he ended Revan’s.
But her instincts to save her friend overrode her desire to kill her enemy, and Scourge could only lament the lost opportunity.
Meetra was still rushing forward, using the Force to return her lightsaber to her waiting hand. Sensing hesitation and uncertainty in the Emperor as he tried to evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of his new foe, Scourge rushed forward to join Meetra and Revan-The Old Republic: Revan

"You may be wondering: when did he begin to change? The truth is that I haven’t changed. As we have clouded the minds of the Jedi, I clouded yours. Never once did I have any intention of sharing power with you. I needed to learn from you; no more, no less. To learn all of your secrets, which I trusted you would eventually reveal. But what made you think that I would need you after that? Vanity, perhaps; your sense of self-importance. You’ve been nothing more than a pawn in a game played by a genuine Master.
“The Sith’ari.”
A cruel laugh escaped him.
“Reflect back on even the past few years—assuming you have the capacity. Yinchorr, Dorvalla, Eriadu, Maul, the Neimoidians, Naboo, an army of clones, the fallen Jedi Dooku... You think these were your ideas, when in fact they were mine, cleverly suggested to you so that you could feed them back to me. You were far too trusting, Plagueis. No true Sith can ever really care about another. This has always been known. There is no way but my way.” -Darth Plagueis

"It's a great pity that our paths have never crossed before, Obi-Wan," he said, his voice warm and inviting. "Qui-Gon always spoke very highly of you. I wish he was still alive—I could use his help right now." 
"Qui-Gon Jinn would never join you." 
"Don't be so sure, my young Jedi," Count Dooku immediately replied, an offsetting smile on his face, one of confidence and calm. "You forget that Qui-Gon was once my apprentice just as you were once his." 
"You believe that brings loyalty above his loyalty to the Jedi Council and the Republic?" 
"He knew all about the corruption in the Senate," Dooku went on without missing a beat. "They all do, of course. Yoda and Mace Windu. But Qui-Gon would never have gone along with the status quo, with that corruption, if he had known the truth as I have." The pause was dramatic, demanding a prompt from Obi-Wan. 
"The truth?" 
"The truth," said a confident Dooku. "What if I told you that the Republic was now under the control of the Dark Lords of the Sith?" 
That hit Obi-Wan as profoundly as any of the electric bolts holding him ever could. "No! That's not possible." His mind whirled, needing a denial. He alone among the living Jedi had battled a Sith Lord, and that contest had cost his beloved Master Qui-Gon his life. "The Jedi would be aware of it." 
"The dark side of the Force has clouded their vision, my friend," Dooku calmly explained. "Hundreds of Senators are now under the influence of a Sith Lord called Darth Sidious." -Attack of Clones

For a decade, there was no physical signs of the remaining Dark Lord, but evidence of his power began to appear. The Jedi ability to use the Force inexplicably began to diminish -Databank: Sith

Anakin endured a bizarre visit to the realm of Mortis, a home to a trio of powerful Force wielders who seemed to embody different aspects of the Force. The Father kept the Force in balance, and summoned Anakin to Mortis to fulfill his destiny and take the Father’s place. Anakin refused, and the Force stayed unbalanced. -Databank: Mortis

HellfireUnit wrote:
Besides Revan being able to deflect Vitiate's Force Lightning, there is also the Hero of Tython who managed to overpower Emperor's lightning and strike the latter down.

https://youtu.be/2pwPRbwaT2A?t=2m56s

Praxis wrote:I'm not really interested in getting into a full blown discussion right now since I was only asking for clarification but I'll be brief and address the two glaring holes regarding Valk's lightning since that was what I was asking about.

HellfireUnit wrote:
Besides Revan being able to deflect Vitiate's Force Lightning, there is also the Hero of Tython who managed to overpower Emperor's lightning and strike the latter down.

https://youtu.be/2pwPRbwaT2A?t=2m56s

This is missing some extreme context. The Emperor was in his weakest state in the entire story at this point after his encounter with Sel-Makor.

You also forgot to include Valkorion's lightning blast against Arcann when the Outlander let him take over his body which is his most impressive lightning feat:

https://youtu.be/aFgVb8Q5Ooo?t=162

The Ellimist wrote:

NotAA3 wrote:@HellfireUnit
Your evidence for this is? I'm also pretty sure the codex says it isn't.

The codex entry in question doesn't address the question of whether or not it's a ritual. Anyway, Ziost is compared to Nathema in and out of universe; you could say that the destruction part of Nathema was not a ritual but rather a machine that Vitiate didn't have on Ziost, but the galaxy ritual involved a ritual for the destruction too.

That's how long it takes him in-game IIRC.

How do we know that's real-time? We see the death wave up close and it's not even that fast.

Is Ziost more impressive than Nihilus (who Sidious scales above)? What about the unbalancing of the Force?

BreakofDawn wrote:

CuckedCurry wrote:I mean the answer is simple 

Would Valk be terrified of Vaylin if he could do death waves off the bat

Those "death waves" took immense concentration and weren't shown to be usable on anything less than a planetary level. They're completely ineffective in a fight. He was scared of her because her full power was greater than any other being he'd ever seen and reminded him of himself.

You also forgot to include Valkorion's lightning blast against Arcann when the Outlander let him take over his body which is his most impressive lightning feat:

https://youtu.be/aFgVb8Q5Ooo?t=162

HellfireUnit wrote:

"Whispered rumors have persisted of planets snuffed out through intricate Sith rituals or by way of deadly, arcane machines--such as the device Revan sought to employ on Yavin 4--but Ziost represents a clear display of the corrosive power of the dark side of the Force taken to its extreme." -Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor.

Azronger wrote:@HellfireUnit Good job, reminds of the style of argumentation I used to employ a few years back. Although Scourge did administer an antidote for Revan's drugs and they did have at least a day of rest and meditation, so I doubt Revan was weakened beyond suffering the effects of the dark side nexus.

The Ellimist wrote:

HellfireUnit wrote:

"Whispered rumors have persisted of planets snuffed out through intricate Sith rituals or by way of deadly, arcane machines--such as the device Revan sought to employ on Yavin 4--but Ziost represents a clear display of the corrosive power of the dark side of the Force taken to its extreme." -Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor.

To be fair, I don't think this quote says Ziost was or wasn't a ritual - the point is that those were rumors (and it wasn't of just rituals, but also "deadly, arcane machines"), and this was "clear".

Azronger wrote:Anyway, to address the whole Ziost thing: the feat's entirely unquantifiable in a combative context. If Vitiate fired it in the middle of combat against Sidious, the vast majority of the energy wouldn't even be directed at Sidious since it's a planetary AoE attack released in all directions. Sidious would only have to tank the amount of energy hitting the surface area of his body, which is a tiny fraction of the totality. And while you can argue Vitiate can still channel the power of Ziost into a single, concentrated attack on Sidious, the power of such an attack is impossible to quantify. How do you calculate the power required for Ziost in terms of Force lightning or telekinesis? You can't. I have no idea why the feat is still cited in cross-era battles against other top-tier Force-users when it is one-of-a-kind with no reference point to any other feat in the mythos.

SWTOR Vitiate vs. PT Sidious already has a canonical answer anyway:





The excerpt from Insider # 86 is out-of-universe and talks about Sidious as the MVP Sith in the context of his fight with Yoda. Ergo, in combat, Darth Sidious is more powerful than Vitiate until he renounced the Sith title and the Sith Empire.

Sidious was the strongest person to use the Dark Side up to the date during the days of PT

Azronger wrote:

Sidious was the strongest person to use the Dark Side up to the date during the days of PT

Can you provide that quote?