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The LostLevel Five
Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Asajj Ventress
August 23rd 2019, 6:46 am
Both in their prime.
Who wins, by what margin, and why? No "X wins" type posts pls.
Who wins, by what margin, and why? No "X wins" type posts pls.
HellfireUnitLevel Six
Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Asajj Ventress
August 23rd 2019, 6:59 am
Obi-Wan should win with low difficulty, if he is in the mindset when he fought against Anakin. Ventress is extremely skilled but she is nowhere near Dooku, both in sabers and Force. Obi-Wan's form being capable of deflecting Anakin's strikes combined with his immense strength should be able to block and overcome anything Ventress can throw at Kenobi. Unless Ventress can use an instant rush of Force and choke Kenobi like she did way back in CW against both him and Skywalker, she doesn't have anything in her arsenal to overcome Kenobi's defences. Even that is extremely unlikely. Ventress being focused on offense rather than defence is also an advantage for Kenobi. In every aspect, Obi-Wan seems to be superior.
MasterCilghalLevel Three
Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Asajj Ventress
August 23rd 2019, 7:48 am
Kenobi wins by a fair margin, although I don’t think he can stomp her (as I did once). He has better feats against more powerful opponents (like MF Vader, Dooku and Maul) and has proven he can beat her on several occasions.
JakeLevel One
Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Asajj Ventress
August 23rd 2019, 8:33 am
I'll adhere to the updated timeline as outlined by Hidalgo in the Essential Reader's Companion, so as not to sideline the main debate.
Comparing the two via Dooku obviously isn't fair, as we know that Ventress is uniquely vulnerable to his force abilities due to withheld knowledge and a personal connection, something not shared by Obi-Wan;
For starters, Asajj is established as Obi-Wan's rough equal at the start of the war;
By 21 BBY, Asajj is sending ripples through the Force due to her experiencing increases in power 'all the time' (link), growing to a level where she can stave off Anakin and simply one-shot Obi-Wan with a kick - while nursing an injury from a ship crash* - leaving him unconscious for roughly 20 seconds. Without Anakin's aid, Kenobi no doubt would have been killed. Around this time, we also see that Asajj is capable of giving Obi-Wan's stated superior of that time, Mace Windu, a run for his money in close proximity to the most potent light side nexus in the galaxy (link);
This is prior to two years of growth and cybernetic augmentations that boost her rage (the source of her power) tenfold.
* To preemptively quell the 'injury boosting her power' argument, each time we see Ventress injured in combat, it's forced her to slow;
We see firsthand that Ventress' growth rate is quicker than Kenobi's, as she goes from his rough equal to stomping him and staving off Anakin while injured in a little over a year. This growth would continue up to Obsession, where she's bolstered further still by returning from the brink of death (such experiences made Krayt, Revan, and Maul even more powerful) and rage-increasing cybernetics.
The only path to victory for Kenobi is arguing Father level growth leading up to and during Revenge of the Sith, which I don't see as legitimate.
For now I'll back Ventress every time.
Comparing the two via Dooku obviously isn't fair, as we know that Ventress is uniquely vulnerable to his force abilities due to withheld knowledge and a personal connection, something not shared by Obi-Wan;
If Dooku wanted to end her, he would. He had not taught her all the Sith lore he possessed, but even the slender connection between them made her terribly vulnerable to his arts. - Yoda: Dark Rendezvous
For starters, Asajj is established as Obi-Wan's rough equal at the start of the war;
Obi-Wan Kenobi and Asajj Ventress are pretty evenly matched. After realising that her mission on Teth has failed, Ventress escapes by leaping onto a swooping vulture droid. - 2008 Topps Star Wars Clone Wars Stickers #31
The two go at each other relentlessly, a pair of evenly matched warriors, a Jedi and a Sith, both strong with the power of the Force. - 2008 Topps Star Wars: The Clone Wars Stickers #68 - Kenobi vs Ventress
By 21 BBY, Asajj is sending ripples through the Force due to her experiencing increases in power 'all the time' (link), growing to a level where she can stave off Anakin and simply one-shot Obi-Wan with a kick - while nursing an injury from a ship crash* - leaving him unconscious for roughly 20 seconds. Without Anakin's aid, Kenobi no doubt would have been killed. Around this time, we also see that Asajj is capable of giving Obi-Wan's stated superior of that time, Mace Windu, a run for his money in close proximity to the most potent light side nexus in the galaxy (link);
The Temple was still the greatest nexus of Force energy on the planet, perhaps even the galaxy, and it was unquestionably the best place in the galaxy for intense, focused meditation.
The Jedi Temple was the greatest nexus of Force energy in the Republic; its ziggurat design focused the Force the way a lightsaber's gemstone focused its energy stream. - Revenge of the Sith Novelisation
This is prior to two years of growth and cybernetic augmentations that boost her rage (the source of her power) tenfold.
* To preemptively quell the 'injury boosting her power' argument, each time we see Ventress injured in combat, it's forced her to slow;
Obi-Wan felt the water surge at him, and he let that surge carry him in its natural arc. His lightsaber flashed in, and for the first time, he cut her. The wound was low on the ribs on her right side, and her eyes widened in pain and sudden fear. In the same instant, Obi-Wan threw caution to the winds, and went at her. His blade was here, there, at all angles, and her wound slowed her... - The Cestus Deception
Then he threw her backward with a Force push. She hit a column hard enough to hear something crack, and staggered to her feet. Ventress chased him through the passages and up flights of ancient stone stairs, slowed by whatever she'd injured - vertebrae, ribs? - The Clone Wars
We see firsthand that Ventress' growth rate is quicker than Kenobi's, as she goes from his rough equal to stomping him and staving off Anakin while injured in a little over a year. This growth would continue up to Obsession, where she's bolstered further still by returning from the brink of death (such experiences made Krayt, Revan, and Maul even more powerful) and rage-increasing cybernetics.
The only path to victory for Kenobi is arguing Father level growth leading up to and during Revenge of the Sith, which I don't see as legitimate.
For now I'll back Ventress every time.
- The LostLevel Five
Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Asajj Ventress
August 23rd 2019, 9:02 am
Well, Kenobi did go from having his bones bent, his strikes knocked aside contemptuously, nearly killed until he manipulated the servos in Vader's prosthetic hand, and blasted all over the place by Vader, to "countering and deflecting" his telekinetic attacks and fighting evenly with him in sabers. All because he let go of all of his attachments. In fact, I believe we ought to dub this "Buddha!Kenobi" or "Buddhanobi" from now on.
I recall Ventress getting manhandled by Anakin shortly before RotS. I mostly wanted to see how badly Ventress loses - wasn't expecting an argument for her winning.
I recall Ventress getting manhandled by Anakin shortly before RotS. I mostly wanted to see how badly Ventress loses - wasn't expecting an argument for her winning.
HeartoftheForceLevel Two
Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Asajj Ventress
August 23rd 2019, 9:04 am
Ventress poses no threat to someone who is inferior to a shadow of prime Kenobi.
Mismatch. Lock this.
Mismatch. Lock this.
- The LostLevel Five
Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Asajj Ventress
August 23rd 2019, 9:06 am
Prime Kenobi > ANH >/= Vader >not a threat> Ventress?Greysentinel365 wrote:Ventress poses no threat to someone who is inferior to a shadow of prime Kenobi.
Mismatch. Lock this.
I'm assuming "poses no threat" is referring to a specific quote.
- JakeLevel One
Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Asajj Ventress
August 23rd 2019, 9:08 am
@ILS
That was retconned to 22 BBY Anakin, but if we want to go there, he was way above his base state;
Prior to his focused Force rage state, Ventress clowned him.
That was retconned to 22 BBY Anakin, but if we want to go there, he was way above his base state;
When she tells Anakin that she is also going to kill Padme, Anakin attacks. Ventress overwhelmed by the sheer power of Anakin's rage is beaten, electrocuted, wrapped in coils of wire, and dropped from the top of a tower. - Comics Companion
Prior to his focused Force rage state, Ventress clowned him.
- JakeLevel One
Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Asajj Ventress
August 23rd 2019, 9:10 am
Greysentinel365 wrote:Ventress poses no threat to someone who is inferior to a shadow of prime Kenobi.
Mismatch. Lock this.
Ventress isn't loyal to Palpatine after S3, meaning that quote doesn't apply to later iterations of her character. Made clear when she renounces her past and actively opposes the Sith agenda by allying herself with Nightsisters, and later outright says "My loyalty is to Count Dooku only" in Obsession.
- HeartoftheForceLevel Two
Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Asajj Ventress
August 23rd 2019, 9:14 am
And? The quote doesn’t refer to servants of Palpatine. It refers to dark Jedi. Which Ventress never stops being.JediJuice wrote:Greysentinel365 wrote:Ventress poses no threat to someone who is inferior to a shadow of prime Kenobi.
Mismatch. Lock this.
Ventress isn't loyal to Palpatine after S3, meaning that quote doesn't apply to later iterations of her character. Made clear when she renounces her past and actively opposes the Sith agenda by allying herself with Nightsisters, and later outright says "My loyalty is to Count Dooku only" in Obsession.
- HeartoftheForceLevel Two
Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Asajj Ventress
August 23rd 2019, 9:20 am
Ventress also never "clowns" Anakin in the DoR fight.She mentally unbalances him by mentioning Padme which allows an early advantage. Lands a surprise cheapshot and then a trade. Hadly "clowning."
The moment Anakin gets on point he ragdolls her.
The moment Anakin gets on point he ragdolls her.
- HellfireUnitLevel Six
Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Asajj Ventress
August 23rd 2019, 9:32 am
ILS wrote:Prime Kenobi > ANH >/= Vader >not a threat> Ventress?Greysentinel365 wrote:Ventress poses no threat to someone who is inferior to a shadow of prime Kenobi.
Mismatch. Lock this.
I'm assuming "poses no threat" is referring to a specific quote.
What? Prime Kenobi>ANH>/=Vader?
- The LostLevel Five
Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Asajj Ventress
August 23rd 2019, 10:02 am
I'm not sure what Grey meant, but the "Shadow of" quote refers to ANH Kenobi and ANH Vader being shadows of their RotS selves. He said Ventress is "no threat" to ANH Kenobi so I'm wondering what quote he's referring to, if one.
- JakeLevel One
Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Asajj Ventress
August 23rd 2019, 10:06 am
@Greysentinel365
The prerequisites for that quote applying are;
1. Loyalty to Sidious only (which she gives up after S3)
2. Not being a threat to Sidious or his apprentice (the reason for her casting out)
3. Not being trained sufficiently to be a threat to Darth Bane's insistence that there only be two Sith - quotes like these certainly imply she was;
- Star Wars: The Clone Wars Ultimate Battles Visual Guide
If Dooku's Master, the terrifying Darth Sidious, ever found out about Ventress' "education," the consequences would be dire for both teacher and student.
- Star Wars Insider Magazine #103
- Clone Wars Magazine UK
Not merely "being a dark Jedi." It takes breaking only one of these for the quote to stop applying, and Ventress checks all three outside of her OCW appearances.
By "gets on point" you mean enraged? The key point there is that Anakin was way above base when he 'dominated' Ventress, meaning you can't compare his state on Coruscant to the one on Mustafar and use that to establish some vast superiority. If we want to go there, Ventress performs much better against a less emotionally unbalanced, albeit less powerful Anakin, than Kenobi. And if we use the new timeline, this fight happened in 22 BBY and is thus completely irrelevant here.
He sought to create a network of Force-wielding agents loyal only to him. None would be trained sufficiently to be a threat to Darth Bane's insistence that there only be two Sith, nor would they be a threat to Darth Sidious or his apprentice, Darth Vader.
The prerequisites for that quote applying are;
1. Loyalty to Sidious only (which she gives up after S3)
2. Not being a threat to Sidious or his apprentice (the reason for her casting out)
3. Not being trained sufficiently to be a threat to Darth Bane's insistence that there only be two Sith - quotes like these certainly imply she was;
- Star Wars: The Clone Wars Ultimate Battles Visual Guide
If Dooku's Master, the terrifying Darth Sidious, ever found out about Ventress' "education," the consequences would be dire for both teacher and student.
- Star Wars Insider Magazine #103
- Clone Wars Magazine UK
Not merely "being a dark Jedi." It takes breaking only one of these for the quote to stop applying, and Ventress checks all three outside of her OCW appearances.
Ventress also never "clowns" Anakin in the DoR fight.She mentally unbalances him by mentioning Padme which allows an early advantage. Lands a surprise cheapshot and then a trade. Hadly "clowning."
The moment Anakin gets on point he ragdolls her.
By "gets on point" you mean enraged? The key point there is that Anakin was way above base when he 'dominated' Ventress, meaning you can't compare his state on Coruscant to the one on Mustafar and use that to establish some vast superiority. If we want to go there, Ventress performs much better against a less emotionally unbalanced, albeit less powerful Anakin, than Kenobi. And if we use the new timeline, this fight happened in 22 BBY and is thus completely irrelevant here.
Gianfi
Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Asajj Ventress
August 23rd 2019, 10:13 am
In Dark Disciple Ventress did better vs Dooku than Kenobi ever did. I think it’s pretty close
- MasterCilghalLevel Three
Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Asajj Ventress
August 23rd 2019, 10:50 am
The thread doesn’t specify that canon is allowed as such the standard rules apply, in which case canon material isn’t valid.Gianfi wrote:In Dark Disciple Ventress did better vs Dooku than Kenobi ever did. I think it’s pretty close
BreakofDawnLevel Seven
Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Asajj Ventress
August 23rd 2019, 10:51 am
Prime Kenobi takes it decisively, though it's a good fight. He's more skilled than her and reasonably more powerful.
Then again, she's the one person who managed to resist his flirting and didn't lose in a fairly embarrassing way afterwards, so there's that going for her.
Then again, she's the one person who managed to resist his flirting and didn't lose in a fairly embarrassing way afterwards, so there's that going for her.
SithSauceLevel One
Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Asajj Ventress
August 23rd 2019, 1:04 pm
Kenobi smashes, not a close fight
- SithSauceLevel One
Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Asajj Ventress
August 23rd 2019, 1:20 pm
None would be trained sufficiently to be a threat to Darth Bane's insistence that there only be two Sith, nor would they be a threat to Darth Sidious or his apprentice Darth Vader. The most powerful of these agents were 'only' Sith adepts but would appear to be almost as dark Jedi - the likes of Asajj Ventress, Mara Jade or Inquisitor Valin (in fact a fallen Jedi). The lesser agents were reduced to still-deadly faceless minions. Amongst their ranks were the Shadow Guard.ILS wrote:I'm not sure what Grey meant, but the "Shadow of" quote refers to ANH Kenobi and ANH Vader being shadows of their RotS selves. He said Ventress is "no threat" to ANH Kenobi so I'm wondering what quote he's referring to, if one.
Starships and Vehicles Collection #63
I think he's referring to this quote which puts Ventress below TFU Vader which in turns puts her below Ben Kenobi.
- The LostLevel Five
Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Asajj Ventress
August 23rd 2019, 1:21 pm
Seems clear cut to me.
- BreakofDawnLevel Seven
Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Asajj Ventress
August 23rd 2019, 6:46 pm
ANH Vader did hold a considerable advantage over Ben, so that should be taken into account. Nearly every source depicting the actual fight has Vader blocking Ben's attacks with little difficulty and putting him on the defensive. Even the film supports this with Ben temporarily holding his own at the start then being continuously forced back. The only time Ben actually puts Vader on the defensive is when he surprises him by catching him off-guard, something that can - and has - happened to some of the best swordsman in Star Wars.
PeraltaEagle45
Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Asajj Ventress
August 23rd 2019, 7:18 pm
Kenobi wins as easily as he did in the TCW movie.
- Gianfi
Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Asajj Ventress
August 24th 2019, 3:30 am
MasterCilghal wrote:The thread doesn’t specify that canon is allowed as such the standard rules apply, in which case canon material isn’t valid.Gianfi wrote:In Dark Disciple Ventress did better vs Dooku than Kenobi ever did. I think it’s pretty close
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