AotC Kenobi vs Qui-Gon Jinn

That is a no brainer that his exhaustion hindered him.

@LOTL

Full quote?

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Krayt Dies wrote:@Kilius

Dooku did think Kenobi compared unfavorably to Jinn but lets not forget that Kenobi was both exhausted from the arena fight[2] and had been tortured for several hours[3] so we should take Dooku's musings with a grain of salt. Kenobi was certainly not at his best when he fought Dooku not even close and he still drove back a toying Dooku.

Kenobi's fatigue from the arena fight it totally irrelevant. Force Users have generally been shown to be capable of washing away physical fatigue and injury with the Force. All the arena fight does is make it so that when Kenobi commits to an offensive he burns out much quicker due to having to commit more reserves when attacking because of his physical tiredness as is shown in the Junior Novelization where Kenobi's washes away his tiredness and the only time it is noted as a hindrance is when Kenobi is unable to keep up the pace of his attack for long. So, in other words, Kenobi when fighting Dooku in AOTC should be at peak strength and it's only towards the end of the duel that he is burned out.

Secondly, the script describes the scene where Kenobi drives Dooku back as a "moment" establishing it wasn't at all lengthy.

   "Alone, he knew he had little chance of winning against Dooku. Not only was Dooku a master swordsman, he was rested and fresh, while Obi-Wan was already weary from the fight at the arena. But I have to try Obi-Wan thought. He raised his lightsaber.
    Dooku smiled and parried the first cut easily. He barely needed to move to parry the second and third strokes as well. "Master Kenobi you disappoint me," he said. "Yoda holds you in such he esteem".
     He's trying to distract me Grimly, Obi-Wan fought on. His exhaustion was starting to tell, his breath came is harsh gasps. He backed off hoping for a respite.
    "Come, come Master Kenobi," Dooku taunted. "Put me out of my misery."
      Taking a deep breath Obi-Wan shifted his grip and dove into battle once more. Dooku gave ground surprised by the ferocity of the attack, and for a moment Obi-Wan hoped that he might defeat the Count after all, but even drawing on the Force he was too tired to keep pace for long. The Count began to drive him back."

If LOTL hadn't already pointed this out on Discord then you should see now that Kenobi was flat out stated to be exhausted in the beginning stages of the fight and even when he drew on the Force as you suggested it still wasn't enough to completely stave off his exhaustion; he was "too tired" even as he tried to keep the pace not after he "burned out".

So yes Kenobi being exhausted is absolutely relevant to bring up. An exhausted Kenobi who had been tortured for who knows how many hours; he was stated to be exhausted even then during Dooku's interrogation if you go back to my quotes of Precipice, never mind adding the arena fight which exhausted even Mace fcking Windu on top of that, the poor guy was down on his last reserves when we get to the hanger you can't say with a straight face his condition was "irrelevant" in a comparison with Jinn.

Also worth noting that it's not like Dooku thought Kenobi was useless. He states he is quite capable. But expected more.



Moreover @killius has not done justice to Obi-Wan's condition

It was an effective way to secure a Jedi, he had to admit. He could focus neither mind nor body enough to harness the energy of the Force in order to affect an escape. The static electricity emanating from the containment field felt like millions of tiny nimgnats burrowing relentlessly into his flesh. It was excruciating and disturbingly efficient.

The Jedi swallowed hard, wincing at the stale, coppery taste of blood in his mouth. Dwelling on his discomfort would benefit neither himself nor the Force he had dedicated his life to serving. He sighed and tried to center his concentration. Again. Instead all he could think about was clawing the skin from his bones.

..........

Right. Red walls. Check. Intense pain. Check. No aid from the Force. Check

..........

He wanted to rip the flesh from the back of his skull!

..........

- Precipice

This on top of mental torture, then the arena fight and now the duel. Physical injuries hinder force use bar drawing on them for pain. And even at this point Obi-Wan was coughing up blood and could not call on the force for help.

So yes Dooku thought a bloody, tortured and exhausted Obi-Wan was "adept" but could be better.

Do we ever get a idea of what Dooku thought of Qui-Gon skill level?

Dooku says he's "adept", but there's a "but" to it. Anyway, are people really suggesting that Dooku the master swordsman, and also someone far more proficient in the Force than Kenobi (especially at this point) did not know Kenobi wasn't fresh?

We don't really have an indication of what Dooku directly thought of Jinn's skill later on in life. The above scan seems to indicate that Dooku did have quite a high opinion of his skills. Others like Plagueis and Sidious also seem to have been impressed by Jinn's overall power and ability.

We do have a noticeable example earlier on in life though:

Dooku admired how Qui-Gon did not flinch or hesitate, but kept moving in the same fluid, graceful manner. Qui-Gon had so little of the awkwardness of adolescence. He moved swiftly and easily, his arm swinging with the motion of his lightsaber as he parried the blaster fire.

-Legacy of the Jedi

Throughout the book, there's a lot of praise Dooku levies on Qui-Gon, calling him a perfect Padawan, never needing to tell him anything twice etc. But this hardly translates to skill. I don't think anyone can disagree that Dooku would have held Qui-Gon in high regard, even in skill. Sharad Hett also seems to have held Qui-Gon in high regard, as he seems to have expected someone like Jinn to be sent to apprehend him.

@Kilius

If LOTL hadn't already pointed this out on Discord then you should see now that Kenobi was flat out stated to be exhausted in the beginning stages of the fight and even when he drew on the Force as you suggested it still wasn't enough to completely stave off his exhaustion; he was "too tired" even as he tried to keep the pace not after he "burned out".

Yeah, his exhaustion only started to tell after the initial exchanges of the duel establishing as I said it was a stamina problem. Meanwhile, we have Dooku blocking Kenobi's every blow effortlessly which of course given that I've established it was a stamina problem means Kenobi's tiredness was quite frankly irrelevant.

In fact, the Novelization for AOTC directly attributes the ease with which Dooku dealt with Kenobi to Dooku's skill and efficiency with Makashi as opposed to any tiredness on Kenobi's part:

Dooku smiled and ignited a red-glowing blade.

Obi-Wan stepped slowly at first, then came on in a sudden rush, his blue blade coming in hard, right to left.

But with only a slight movement, the red blade stabbed under the blue, then lifted up, and Obi-Wan's blade went flying harmlessly high of the mark. With a slight reversal of his wrist, Dooku stabbed straight ahead, and Obi-Wan had to throw himself backward. He brought his lightsaber across as he did, trying to parry, but Dooku had already retracted his blade by then and had settled back into perfect defensive posture.

Against that posture, Obi-Wan's sudden flurry of attacks seemed exaggerated and inefficient, for Dooku defeated each, one after another, with a slight parry or dodge, seeming barely to move. For while Obi-Wan and most of the Jedi were sword fighters, Count Dooku was a fencer, following an older fighting style, one more effective against weapons like lightsabers than against projectile weapons like blasters. The Jedi on the whole had abandoned that old fighting style, considering it almost irrelevant against the enemies of the present galaxy, but Dooku had always held stubbornly to it, considering it among the highest of fighting disciplines.

Now, as the battle played out between the Count and Obi-Wan, the older way showed its brilliance. Obi-Wan leapt and spun, slashing side to side, chopping and thrusting, but all of Dooku's movements seemed far more efficient. He followed a single line, front and back, his feet shifting to keep him constantly in perfect balance as he retreated and came on suddenly with devastating thrusts that had Obi-Wan stumbling backward. "Master Kenobi, you disappoint me," the Count taunted. "Yoda holds you in such high esteem."

Credit: AOTC Novelization

As for the passage saying Kenobi was tired as he was attacking Dooku I never denied that he was... I said Force Users have generally been capable of temporarily washing away physical fatigue and injury with the Force when they fight but that doesn't negate the fact that they are still tired hence why in the passages you quoted Kenobi burns out and is "too tired to keep up the pace for long".

Nothing you have said refutes that. Also, just to clarify I'm not trying to draw a comparison between Kenobi and Jinn but rather simply pointing out that Kenobi's tiredness in AOTC is never established as anything other than a stamina problem.

All it is, really, is mental gymnastics to try and lowball the scans where Dooku is clearly unimpressed with Kenobi's skill in the context of having been Qui-Gon's apprentice.

Better_than_Dooku wrote:Dooku says he's "adept", but there's a "but" to it. Anyway, are people really suggesting that Dooku the master swordsman, and also someone far more proficient in the Force than Kenobi (especially at this point) did not know Kenobi wasn't fresh?

The problem is that Dooku shouldn't know what an exhausted Jinn who had been tortured for several hours and was twice over exhausted; both from the interrogation(he was flat out stated to be exhausted even when he was still in chains) and forced again to endure a bloody battle that exhausted even Mace Windu(confirmed in the SN) who has some of the best endurance feats of the PT. Also Jinn was only Dooku's Padawan up until the older Jedi Master turned 28 and according to Jinn they rarely keep in contact; their meeting with Hego Damask notwithstanding:

"And how is Master Dooku?" Lorian said. "I hear he is well," Qui-Gon said. He was not in touch with his old master. He had not expected to be. Their relationship had not been based on friendship. It had been based on teacher and student. It was natural that they should not be in each other's lives." Source: Legacy of the Jedi.

The only knowledge Dooku would have of Jinn's TPM capabilities would be from his reputation, second hand accounts, and field reports. So again his judgment is not only bias but suspect.

@Krayt Dies wrote:
Yeah, his exhaustion only started to tell after the initial exchanges of the duel establishing as I said it was a stamina problem. Meanwhile, we have Dooku blocking Kenobi's every blow effortlessly which of course given that I've established it was a stamina problem means Kenobi's tiredness was quite frankly irrelevant.

You are seriously underestimating the severity of physical and mental exhaustion. I think you've been playing one too many video games. Exhaustion isn't like a an energy meter where the protag can fight a peak capacity without any issue until the meter runs out. Exhaustion makes you sluggish, it isn't just your body that's tired but your mind as well and your will, especially your will. You remember the last time you've done a hard days work? Your legs feel like lead, your mind is slow and weary, and your will is so weak you just don't care anymore and want to lie down and never wake up? Well that which I described isn't even close to real physical exhaustion which Kenobi was experiencing even before he set foot on the arena. A fresh Dooku stomped a severely disadvantaged Kenobi. Get over it.

In fact, the Novelization for AOTC directly attributes the ease with which Dooku dealt with Kenobi to Dooku's skill and efficiency with Makashi as opposed to any tiredness on Kenobi's part:

Even in the Senior Novel Mace Windu who has some of the best endurance feats in the PT was stated to be exhausted while he was still fighting; so don't say it was after the adrenaline rush was over:

"More Jedi went down under the sheer weight of the laser barrage. Less than half of them were still standing. “Limited choices,” Ki-Adi-Mundi said to the exhausted and bloody Mace Windu."

So unless AotC Kenobi who was already exhausted from the previous hours torture as me and Grey provided from Precipice, is tougher and possesses greater physical and mental reserves than Mace Windu he was absolutely hindered when he fought Dooku. Yes Dooku is much more skilled than AotC Kenobi but he was absolutely disadvantaged when he fought him, there's no getting around that fact.

As for the passage saying Kenobi was tired as he was attacking Dooku I never denied that he was... I said Force Users have generally been capable of temporarily washing away physical fatigue and injury with the Force when they fight but that doesn't negate the fact that they are still tired hence why in the passages you quoted Kenobi burns out and is "too tired to keep up the pace for long".

Except Mace and Obi-Wan were fcking using the Force the entire time and they were still exhausted. And as I said stamina isn't just a bar meter where you can fight at peak compacity until you run out of juice. Kenobi would have been physically slower, mentally slower, and would have to work twice as hard to keep his will up, while Dooku was fresh. Dooku is much more skilled than AotC Kenobi but he wouldn't have stomped him as hard if Kenobi had been fresh.

Better_than_Dooku wrote:All it is, really, is mental gymnastics to try and lowball the scans where Dooku is clearly unimpressed with Kenobi's skill in the context of having been Qui-Gon's apprentice.

Fighting ability includes the ability to last too. Lol at this being mental gymnastics

Just checked the quote on the novel, and no, there is nothing indicating that Obi Wan battled him at full strength. The fact that he attacked with new ferocity is certainly not indicative of that, lol. New ferocity means that he attacked with high intensity, not that him attacking with that level of intensity means that he is at peak level.

Just to check the double standards here just in case, Anakin vs Obi Wan was stated to be the most ferocious fight of his life. Let's see if HP admits that Mustafar Vader is the "best" version of Vader

Hehehehehe...

ROTJ Vader... hell even Purge Vader should be >

@Kilius

You are seriously underestimating the severity of physical and mental exhaustion. I think you've been playing one too many video games. Exhaustion isn't like a an energy meter where the protag can fight a peak capacity without any issue until the meter runs out. Exhaustion makes you sluggish, it isn't just your body that's tired but your mind as well and your will, especially your will. You remember the last time you've done a hard days work? Your legs feel like lead, your mind is slow and weary, and your will is so weak you just don't care anymore and want to lie down and never wake up? Well that which I described isn't even close to real physical exhaustion which Kenobi was experiencing even before he set foot on the arena. A fresh Dooku stomped a severely disadvantaged Kenobi. Get over it.

Lmao. You seem to have forgotten that we are talking about Force Sensitives here who can erase their physical exhaustion temporarily with the Force as I already said. They're not regular humans. Where regular humans would get exhausted after physically demanding tasks Force Users can use the Force to keep themselves going and only collapse when most/all of their reserves are depleted. You have no proof that Kenobi was on his last reserves (all you have are some quotes saying he was tired) and in fact, their is evidence to the contrary with Kenobi's exhaustion only beginning to tell after the initial exchange of the duel indicating it wasn't evident beforehand implying Kenobi was using his full strength:

His exhaustion was starting to tell, his breath came is harsh gasps. He backed off hoping for a respite.

Credit: AOTC JN Novelization

This is after Dooku had already parried several attacks from Kenobi easily. So to repeat myself Kenobi was only beginning to exhaust himself after the initial exchange of the duel.

Even in the Senior Novel Mace Windu who has some of the best endurance feats in the PT was stated to be exhausted while he was still fighting; so don't say it was after the adrenaline rush was over:

... Why are you using Mace Windu's state exactly? For all, you know Mace could have used up more reserves than Kenobi and thus been more exhausted. You have 0 proof that the two were comparably exhausted so stop trying to equate the two and say Kenobi was as exhausted as Mace because by all evidence he wasn't (see section 1 of my post).

So unless AotC Kenobi who was already exhausted from the previous hours torture as me and Grey provided from Precipice, is tougher and possesses greater physical and mental reserves than Mace Windu he was absolutely hindered when he fought Dooku.

How was Kenobi exhausted from the torture exactly? He wasn't using up any Force Reserves (per the text itself) and you haven't proven he was significantly injured during it (him coughing up blood isn't a significant injury).

Moreover, this doesn't prove he's tougher or has greater physical reserves lmao. We don't know how much fire each of them came under and how much of their reserves they were forced to use as I said above.

Except Mace and Obi-Wan were fcking using the Force the entire time and they were still exhausted.

You have no proof what Kenobi was suffering from was Force exhaustion lmao. The most commentary he gives is that he is weary from the fight in the arena ect but you can't prove this statement was in reference to anything other than physical exhaustion (hence why all his exhaustion is noted to do is stop him from keeping up the pace of his attack).

And as I said stamina isn't just a bar meter where you can fight at peak compacity until you run out of juice. Kenobi would have been physically slower, mentally slower, and would have to work twice as hard to keep his will up, while Dooku was fresh.

Addressed and debunked.

Dooku is much more skilled than AotC Kenobi but he wouldn't have stomped him as hard if Kenobi had been fresh.

I'm agreed that he probably wouldn't have stomped him as bad given that Kenobi would more than likely last longer with full stamina.

Conclusion: Dooku massively outperforming Kenobi in the Lightsaber duel was due to his superior skill with Makashi and greater command over the Force. All Kenobi's exhaustion did was affect his stamina.

^Is the above really going to be claimed as a debunk? It doesn't debunk shit

By all means, feel free to refute it.

Is this thread still going on?

Kek.

Krayt Dies wrote:and in fact, their is evidence to the contrary with Kenobi's exhaustion only beginning to tell after the initial exchange of the duel indicating it wasn't evident beforehand implying Kenobi was using his full strength:

His exhaustion was starting to tell, his breath came is harsh gasps. He backed off hoping for a respite.

Not completely spent = Full strength? There are various stages of exhaustion you know. As the novel clearly states beforehand he was "already weary" implying the exact opposite of "full strength". Just like Dooku was merely "tired" in the intermediate stages of the RotS duel instead of near completely exhausted toward the end. I'm sure you wouldn't argue Dooku was "at full strength" when that duel stated to "get tiring" just as Kenobi was "already weary" at the start of his.

Fair enough on Mace; he uses a more aggressive and physically demanding fighting style, but seeing how the twenty other Jedi were exhausted, as per the script, and weary can easily be used synonymously with exhaustion, as most definitions do, it's far more probable Kenobi was exhausted than not. At the very least he was far from full strength the JN makes that very clear.

Will respond tomorrow if I remember.

Jinn, could see an argument for Kenobi though

Disregard all my previous comments, my critical thinking and worldviews have changed considerably. 

They both have winning chances. It's a pick'em fight. Kenobi theoretically has a style advantage but Jinn has the mental edge of being the older mentor, they know each other so well they'd probably stalemate each other for a time before either gain an advantage. Kenobi probably has more holes in his still developing tactical mindset than Jinn at this stage.

Jinn.

Jinn.

Kenobi

Yea, Jinn seems like the more reliable option, until Kenobi has an argument made in his favor