Count Dooku vs Darth VADER and darth MAUL

freethedevil wrote:

Latham2000 wrote:

freethedevil wrote:okay then, dooku's feats/scaling blow the shit our of maul's. If we're eliminating canon there's actually zilch that puts maul in the same tier as kenobi telekentically. There's zero reason to think dooku can't just snap maul's neck here.

https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t3075-obi-wan-vs-count-dooku-obi-wan-lost-because-dooku-was-familiar-with-his-form

How is ataru relevant to dooku lifting, choking and throwing kenobi

I guess it boils down to Dooku's familiarity with Obi-Wan's version of Ataru (which was definitely influenced by Qui-Gon's, who Dooku has sparred with thousands of times), enabling Dooku to skilfully find a lapse in Obi-Wan's Force defenses and exploit it.

Latham2000 wrote:

freethedevil wrote:

Latham2000 wrote:

freethedevil wrote:okay then, dooku's feats/scaling blow the shit our of maul's. If we're eliminating canon there's actually zilch that puts maul in the same tier as kenobi telekentically. There's zero reason to think dooku can't just snap maul's neck here.

https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t3075-obi-wan-vs-count-dooku-obi-wan-lost-because-dooku-was-familiar-with-his-form

How is ataru relevant to dooku lifting, choking and throwing kenobi

I guess it boils down to Dooku's familiarity with Obi-Wan's version of Ataru (which was definitely influenced by Qui-Gon's, who Dooku has sparred with thousands of times), enabling Dooku to skilfully find a lapse in Obi-Wan's Force defenses and exploit it.

But they aren't even clashing blades when dooku does it...

freethedevil wrote:

Latham2000 wrote:

freethedevil wrote:

Latham2000 wrote:

freethedevil wrote:okay then, dooku's feats/scaling blow the shit our of maul's. If we're eliminating canon there's actually zilch that puts maul in the same tier as kenobi telekentically. There's zero reason to think dooku can't just snap maul's neck here.

https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t3075-obi-wan-vs-count-dooku-obi-wan-lost-because-dooku-was-familiar-with-his-form

How is ataru relevant to dooku lifting, choking and throwing kenobi

I guess it boils down to Dooku's familiarity with Obi-Wan's version of Ataru (which was definitely influenced by Qui-Gon's, who Dooku has sparred with thousands of times), enabling Dooku to skilfully find a lapse in Obi-Wan's Force defenses and exploit it.

But they aren't even clashing blades when dooku does it...

Correct. Dooku clashes blades with Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time, but shoves their blades upwards, chokes Obi-Wan, kicks Anakin aside, and then does the rag dolling.

There's also a part of the RotS junior novel, which sorta conveys that Obi-Wan's mind was busy on trying to co-ordinate with Anakin, but fails because Dooku abruptly chokes him, but doesn't manage to resist the choke because it was too sudden (wtf?), that isn't mutually exclusive with Dooku's familiarity advantage enabling him to emerge victorious. Idk about you, but Obi-Wan seems to be one of the least pro-active fighters in his era.

Note that the Count is still sure that he can win in a few seconds to Obi Wan's Ataru even after he has seen Obi Wan's true force augmentation.

So Kbro has awakened from his slumber?

nice, I'll get the popcorn, this will be a wild ride.

Maul and Vader can give Dooku a solid fight on their own. Duo overwhelms.

Meatpants wrote:Physical strength is tied directly to Force power though - for example, Yoda's strength is better than Vader's. So like, where is Vader > Dooku in strength coming from?

Force augmentation is tied to force power yes, but only to a degree, as gaps in that area usually seem to be a lot smaller, hence why instances of trained force users blitzing an opponent in combat are so rare, because they require an abysmal gap in power. Some good examples of this would be Maul vs TCW Sidious, Luke vs UnuThul and so on. With that in mind, it’s possible Vader vs Dooku would be closer in a pure duel, though at the moment I don’t really have an opinion on Vader so I can’t comment.
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@MasterCilghal

Yes, you require a huge gap in power. Though, in this situation, why wouldn't there be? Qui-Gon is "far more powerful" than ROTJ Vader, and Dooku is various tiers above Qui-Gon by ROTS, so there's absolutely a massive gap. There's no evidence pointing towards Vader holding his own against someone who's exponentially more powerful than the person who's far more powerful than them.

@MasterCilghal Just curious do you believe there is a massive distinction between EU and OT Vader, which perhaps is the cause of your uncertainty about him?

Meatpants wrote:Yes, you require a huge gap in power. Though, in this situation, why wouldn't there be? Qui-Gon is "far more powerful" than ROTJ Vader, and Dooku is various tiers above Qui-Gon by ROTS, so there's absolutely a massive gap. There's no evidence pointing towards Vader holding his own against someone who's exponentially more powerful than the person who's far more powerful than them.

Just to be clear, my post was meant almost exclusively to cover the connection between force power and strength/speed. What I argued is that Dooku vs Vader would be closer in a pure duel than in power under that premise, not that it would necessarily be close. 

@SithSauce it’s not really that. The lore establishes Vader is more powerful than he is skilled so what I need to come up with for Vader is a placement in force power. That’s where I’m unsure.

There are a number of quotes saying Vader largely overcame the physical limitations of his suit, so that would lessen the disparity between his power and lightsaber dueling by ESB and ROTJ.

So, where the fuck did qui-gon being more powerful than vader come from? Because it sure wasn't feats.

freethedevil wrote:So, where the fuck did qui-gon being more powerful than vader come from? Because it sure wasn't feats.

Qui-Gon achieved immorality by becoming one with the Force all by himself, which is why the community has concluded that he is far more powerful than Vader.

Latham2000 wrote:

freethedevil wrote:So, where the fuck did qui-gon being more powerful than vader come from? Because it sure wasn't feats.

Qui-Gon achieved immorality by becoming one with the Force all by himself, which is why the community has concluded that he is far more powerful than Vader.

By that logic he's more powerful than every darksider ever, lmao.

freethedevil wrote:So, where the fuck did qui-gon being more powerful than vader come from? Because it sure wasn't feats.

Because Lucas was a crackhead in the 90s and early 00s and made some vague quotes about tech that have been interpreted to mean Vader must be limited to sub-Jinn level.

Indeed. The only reason why Qui-Gon lost to Maul is because George said "Hey, not today sport" and decided to kill him off to advance the story, otherwise the OT wouldn't have happened.