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XSUPREMEXSKILLZLevel Two
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan
March 16th 2020, 2:03 am
Revan is just a powerhouse brao. SoR Revan is a completely different animal from Novel Revan, as the latter is defeated by Novel Vitiate in a close fight, while the former would obliterate Novel Vitiate in seconds given his absurd degree of superiority to the SoR strike team members, such as HoT, who butchered a recovered Voice of the Emperor after dissipating his own energies and fighting for every inch of ground in Kaas city and in the midst of the immense nexus of the dark temple. This isn’t even considering the immense growth HoT experiences after Act 3 and the amp he receives from Satele’s Battle Meditation that “greatly increases” HoT’s combat effectiveness. SoR Revan is bound by no most powerful quotes and is far and away more powerful than even collective groups of the best Jedi and Sith TOR has to offer, including a greatly amped Emperor-slayer.
MPModerator | Champion of Darkness
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan
March 16th 2020, 2:04 am
Geth
JakeLevel One
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan
March 16th 2020, 2:12 am
@DarthAnt66 The Talzin critiques in this post are fantastic, but I have some problems with the rest.
The full quote puts things into context;
Palpatine senses Gethzerion, is stunned (so shocked that one is temporarily unable to react; astonished) and wants her abilities specifically "bottled up." He's scared of both Gethzerion individually, and the Nightsisters running rampant, the latter doesn't cancel out the former. I really don't think OT Palpatine would be "unable to react" if he sensed a Dooku tier lurking on a backwater planet, but maybe that's just me. Also, Palpatine blocking off Dathomir happens eight years before Gethzerion's prime, during which she grows at a rapid pace;
The Emperor is not only stunned by the depth of Geth's power, but also "disturbed" by her growth rate, which would carry on for nearly a decade after the abandonment.
You concede here that Gethzerion is far more powerful than Luke, yet you water this down through your highlighting of the unfair means by which she downed him. I don't really think Luke being unprepared is relevant when we look at the mammoth gaps between himself and other Nightsisters. It's important to note that Luke (two years from Dark Empire) is drawing from Dathomir just like the witches, and from the same power source; the life energy of the planet;
With that equalizer in place, you can apply all Witch/Luke comparisons to his base version. The first witch he fights is Teneniel Djo, an 18 year old light-sider from the Singing Mountain Clan. Here's how that goes;
Teneniel ambushes Luke, but this surprise strike doesn't land. Luke is ready for a fight now, yet she's too fast and smashes his hand, then pelts him with boulders before keeping him locked in a choke-hold. Teneniel's goal is to capture Luke and force him to be her mate, so she would be avoiding all dick-crippling attacks (and crippling strikes in general) and death shots, as she says here;
So even if Luke isn't going for the kill, neither is Teneniel - she needs him in good condition - and her thoughts on the fight paint a pretty clear picture of who is superior;
The only warriors Teneniel has to compare Luke to are other witches, which means he's "not much of a warrior" by Nightsister standards. Afterwards, Teneniel says that Luke is far more powerful than she had realised, but this is based on the false premise that performing Force feats without spells equates to far greater power, which obviously isn't the case. Barriss Offee can also use Force speed without a spell, as can Maks Leem, and neither of them are stomping 8 ABY Luke Skywalker with a baseball bat and telekinesis. Teneniel easily defeated Luke while drawing from the same power source, and with vastly inferior weaponry. Next we run into the Nightsister Ocheron, who cleans up Teneniel Djo;
Ocheron tricks Teneniel and Luke, ambushing them with an attack that causes Teneniel's limbs to wither and die "instantly", as parts of her body are simply sliced away by lightning. Teneniel can't mount any defense, only muffled screams. It takes Luke jumping out from a different direction before a cackling Ocheron can even "turn her attention to him" to stop the attack, and since we see Luke is off to the side - not even apart of Ocheron's vision - this means that her initial burst nearly defeated Luke, before she turned her attention solely to Teneniel;
Teneniel leads Luke and friends to the exiled Nightsister, Barukka, who creates a perfect, miniature, living replica of Dathomir's imperial prison with the Force. Leia deems this "a talent beyond anything she had ever seen in Luke";
With that in mind, here's what Barukka thinks of Gethzerion;
I could add in others, like Baritha, who dulls Teneniel's senses before choking her out, but this is enough text. Luke is a mediocre fighter by Nightsister standards, and gets demolished by a lower level witch's telekinesis. Teneniel is obliterated by the Nightsister spellcaster Ocheron, who "nearly defeats" the duo. Ocheron is an inferior of Gethzerion - "the most powerful" of the Nightsisters. Later, Barukka shows a talent beyond anything Leia had ever seen from Luke, and is petrified of Gethzerion. If Luke is well below a 20 year old light side witch, it's hard to fathom the gap between himself and Geth. At every turn we're told just how much stronger these low tier witches are than Luke, and just how insignifcant they are next to the Nightsister leader. So prepared or not, Gethzerion is pantsing Luke Skywalker every single time.
I hope this reinforced the Palpatine comments and fleshed out the gap between Gethzerion and 8 ABY Luke a little more. I'll end the post by saying; If you're voting for Gethzerion, you really should switch to Exar Kun, who scales directly over her Dathomir-amped version in Force power, has a more reliable track record with haxx - even limiting this to the basic ones he could channel through his hosts as a spirit - and is a "virtually unstoppable" lightsaber duelist. Any perceived edge Gethzerion has over other candidates, Kun does too, to a much greater extent.
Edit: Didn't realise this was Geth vs Revan only. Should have been Kun.
While Palpatine blocked Dathomir, in part, because of Gethzerion's personal power, he primarily did so because he specifically feared that she would "spread her influence to the rest of the galaxy" and then "one day perhaps even challenge him" afterwards (Dark Side Sourcebook). Fearing a galactic uprising led by a super powerful Force user is different than fearing that super powerful Force user on a combative level. The latter isn't really insinuated anywhere. All we know is that Palpatine was initially "stunned by the depth" of her powers, but that can also be attributed to the fact he just suddenly found out about a super-powerful Force user that he didn't know about prior. If Yoda or even Dooku suddenly popped up as a threat, I imagine he'd also be "stunned" by their power if he was otherwise happily unaware of their existence.
The full quote puts things into context;
When the Nightsisters made contact, the Emperor was stunned by the depth of their leader Gethzerion's power. Wanting to keep her abilities safely bottled up, Palpatine ordered the prison's ships destroyed from orbit; the stranded guards were enslaved by Gethzerion and her twisted followers.
Star Wars: The Essential Guide to Planets & Moons
Palpatine senses Gethzerion, is stunned (so shocked that one is temporarily unable to react; astonished) and wants her abilities specifically "bottled up." He's scared of both Gethzerion individually, and the Nightsisters running rampant, the latter doesn't cancel out the former. I really don't think OT Palpatine would be "unable to react" if he sensed a Dooku tier lurking on a backwater planet, but maybe that's just me. Also, Palpatine blocking off Dathomir happens eight years before Gethzerion's prime, during which she grows at a rapid pace;
Her powers grew through devotion to the dark side, and she was determined that her clan would rule, and eventually, escape the planet on which she had been stranded by Emperor Palpatine, who had been disturbed by Gethzerion's growing power.
Star Wars: The Complete Encyclopedia
The Nightsisters possessed dark-side powers and had an army of Imperial slaves at their disposal, remnants of a group abandoned by the Emperor eight years earlier. There had been an Imperial prison on Dathomir, but when the Emperor had learned of the Nightsisters, he had destroyed all the prison’s starships from orbit; better to lose a prison than to allow rival Force users loose on the galaxy.
Star Wars: The Essential Chronology
The Emperor is not only stunned by the depth of Geth's power, but also "disturbed" by her growth rate, which would carry on for nearly a decade after the abandonment.
There is no question that Gethzerion is far more powerful than 8 ABY Luke, but note she specifically downed Luke "before Luke even recognized her evil intent," meaning he was not actively defending himself at the time (although it is still very impressive that she attacked Luke faster than his danger sense registered it).
You concede here that Gethzerion is far more powerful than Luke, yet you water this down through your highlighting of the unfair means by which she downed him. I don't really think Luke being unprepared is relevant when we look at the mammoth gaps between himself and other Nightsisters. It's important to note that Luke (two years from Dark Empire) is drawing from Dathomir just like the witches, and from the same power source; the life energy of the planet;
His powers boosted by the intense life energy of Dathomir, Luke fell in with the Singing Mountain clan and the young witch Teneniel Djo.
Star Wars Fact File #117
Skywalker discovered that the planet’s overwhelming life energy had a peculiar magnifying effect on his Force abilities, allowing him to accomplish feats that had previously been beyond him.
Star Wars: The Essential Chronology
Bordering dense swamplands is the massive stone fortresses of the Nightsisters, a witch clan capable of wielding unique magic fueled by the life forces of the planet.
Starwars.com - Dathomir Encyclopedia Entry
With that equalizer in place, you can apply all Witch/Luke comparisons to his base version. The first witch he fights is Teneniel Djo, an 18 year old light-sider from the Singing Mountain Clan. Here's how that goes;
- Spoiler:
- Luke's heart pounded. A Jedi academy, he realized, and everything suddenly made sense. I searched forty planets and never found a sign of an academy, because the Jedi academy was in the stars. Of course they needed a spaceborne academy. With so few people strong enough to master the Force, the ancient Jedi would have needed to scour the galaxy hunting for recruits. In each star cluster they might have found only one or two cadets worthy to join.
He pulled out his lightsaber, flipped it on, and began cutting through the transparisteel, feeling desperate. This old wreck, as rusted as it was, couldn't possibly hold anything of worth. But he had to look. Blue gouts of molten transparisteel bounced off the deck of the Chu'unthor, and Artoo wheeled back a pace.
Luke was so involved in trying to break into the spaceship, that he almost did not feel her presence, but suddenly there was a power behind him, rushing toward him. He turned just in time to see a woman; long reddish brown hair flashing, tawny hides from some alien creature, strong bare legs. She spun and kicked at him with a leather boot, and Luke felt the force of her intent, ducked, swung with his lightsaber.
He felt a ripple in the Force signifying an attack, but before he could respond the girl swung a club, smashing his artificial hand hard enough so that circuits shorted and the lightsaber spun away. She kicked at his belly and Luke dropped and rolled, used the Force to call his lightsaber back to his left hand.
The girl stopped, and her mouth dropped in astonishment as she saw what he had done. Luke could feel her Force - powerful, wild, like that of no other woman he had ever met. Her brown eyes were flecked with orange, and she crouched on the hull of the Chu'unthor, panting, considering. She could not have been more than eighteen years old, perhaps twenty.
"I won't hurt you," Luke said.
The girl half-closed her eyes, whispered some words, and Luke felt a touch, a probing finger of Force that rippled through him. "How can you work the magic, being only a man?" the girl said.
"The Force is in us all," Luke said, "but only those who are trained can become its Masters."
The girl studied him skeptically. "You claim to master the magic?"
"Yes," Luke said.
"Then you are a male witch, a Jai, from beyond the stars?"
Luke nodded.
"I have heard of the Jai," the girl said. "Grandmother Rell says that they are unbeatable warriors, for they battle death. And since they battle for life, nature cherishes them, and they cannot die. Are you an unbeatable warrior?" The Force of the girl rippled, almost as if she would attack, but Luke felt a difference, the rippling was almost like a blanket, smothering him, binding him, and as Luke tried to imagine what it foreboded, an image came to mind.
He saw the girl hunting in the desert, searching desperately for something that others guarded, protected. He saw a hut made of twigs beneath the shelter of a red rock ledge, an evening campfire twisting in the wind, half-naked children playing beside the fire. And the girl was searching, creeping toward the hut, hungering for something within.
The girl smiled at him and began chanting, and the look in her eyes shocked him. He had never seen such fierce lust. "Waytha am quetha way. Waytha ara quetha way . . ."
"Wait a minute!" Luke said. "You can't be thinking?" Broken bits of stones and clubs began rolling over the surface of the Chu'unthor, rumbling like an approaching storm. Behind the girl, the fog over the river swirled violently. We were repulsed by the witches.
"Waytha ara quetha way. Waytha ara quetha way!" Lightning crackled overhead and a dozen small boulders blasted toward Luke, hurtling through the air. Vader had tried similar tricks, but Luke reflected woefully that Vader hadn't been nearly as good at it. He swung wildly with his lightsaber, bursting several pieces of rock, but one caught him in the chest, throwing him backward a pace. Repulsed by the witches.
"Wait!" Luke shouted. "You can't just take men as slaves and mate with them any time you please!" Boulders thundered across the hull of the ship, hundreds of them, lunging toward Luke like a herd of living animals, and he realized that this woman could do just about anything she wanted. He raised an arm desperately, trying to turn the rocks aside with the Force, but his mind was a roiling sea and he could not gain his focus. Repulsed by the witches.
A log whirled toward him, spinning, and he ducked, stones leaped at him in such numbers he could hardly see them whiz past, and suddenly she was before him, whirling and swinging a club. He hadn't even felt her move toward him, yet her club smacked his skull, lights flashed in his head, and he reeled to the ground.
Groggily, he heard the girl yelling at him, realized that she straddled his chest, locking his arms with her strong legs, but Luke was too weak to fight her off. She held his jaw and shouted triumphantly, "I am Teneniel Djo, a daughter of Allya, and you are my slave!"
Teneniel ambushes Luke, but this surprise strike doesn't land. Luke is ready for a fight now, yet she's too fast and smashes his hand, then pelts him with boulders before keeping him locked in a choke-hold. Teneniel's goal is to capture Luke and force him to be her mate, so she would be avoiding all dick-crippling attacks (and crippling strikes in general) and death shots, as she says here;
"You listened to the Force, let it guide you," Luke said. "But in other ways you are cruel. You tried to kidnap me and Isolder. Do you really think you could take a man slave, or pummel me with rocks, and still hope to retain your innocence?"
"I wasn't trying to kill you when I hit you," Teneniel said, "just catch you! I wouldn't even have hurt you badly!"
"Yet you know it is wrong to take another person captive?"
Teneniel glared at him, fidgeted. "I hoped to love you. And if I did not love you, then I could have sold you to someone else who wanted you more. It's not as if I were going to make you do anything bad. The daughters of Allya have always hunted for mates this way."
Star Wars: The Courtship of Princess Leia
So even if Luke isn't going for the kill, neither is Teneniel - she needs him in good condition - and her thoughts on the fight paint a pretty clear picture of who is superior;
"I am Luke Skywalker, a Jedi Knight. These are my friends, Isolder and Artoo."
Teneniel laughed. "A Knight? You are not much of a warrior, Luke Skywalker."
Star Wars: The Courtship of Princess Leia
Truly, she had captured him easily, and he had trudged along through the day making a show of pulling at his bonds.
Star Wars: The Courtship of Princess Leia
The only warriors Teneniel has to compare Luke to are other witches, which means he's "not much of a warrior" by Nightsister standards. Afterwards, Teneniel says that Luke is far more powerful than she had realised, but this is based on the false premise that performing Force feats without spells equates to far greater power, which obviously isn't the case. Barriss Offee can also use Force speed without a spell, as can Maks Leem, and neither of them are stomping 8 ABY Luke Skywalker with a baseball bat and telekinesis. Teneniel easily defeated Luke while drawing from the same power source, and with vastly inferior weaponry. Next we run into the Nightsister Ocheron, who cleans up Teneniel Djo;
- Spoiler:
- The filthy wind blotted out the sun, and Teneniel dodged and wove through the trees, seeking a way past the Nightsister. Teneniel could still feel her, twenty meters to their right, and just when Teneniel was sure she was past, a bolt of blue lightning pierced through the haze, struck Teneniel in the breast, jarring her mind, lifting her in the air.
The Nightsister stood before them, flames flying from her fingertips, and Teneniel recognized the hag: Ocheron, a woman who had been powerful in her clan, a woman gifted at deception. Too late, Teneniel realized that Ocheron had caused them to run into her trap.
Ocheron laughed and the blue lightning arced from her fingertips, sucked Teneniel's breath away. She shrieked for help. The flames dug into her like fiery claws. The world reeled, and the blue lightning played over her. It touched a breast, and the breast went so cold it felt as if it had been severed. Tongues of lightning played up her left arm, and the arm seemed to die and wither instantly, like a cut ola vine. A bolt of lightning sizzled into her ear, and all sound left her, another arc touched her eye and half the world went black.
The lightning sucked the very life from each limb it touched, slicing parts of her away like a giant blade. She could not fight it, could not run away. She felt so helpless, she could not even scream as she collapsed.
Time seemed to slow as she fell. Ocheron cackled and the killing fire streamed from her fingers. Teneniel's spell faltered: the wind hushed. Soot and debris still filled the sky like a dark fog, but twigs began to rain down in the storm.
Then there was a flash of blue and the smell of ozone as Luke pulled his lightsaber, switched it on and lunged. Ocheron's eyes widened in surprise at his attack, and she tried to turn her attention to him - too late. The lightsaber struck off her head. Purple flames erupted from her neck like water thundering down a mountain stream, and Luke covered his face, trying to shield himself from the touch of the dark power he'd unleashed.
Ocheron tricks Teneniel and Luke, ambushing them with an attack that causes Teneniel's limbs to wither and die "instantly", as parts of her body are simply sliced away by lightning. Teneniel can't mount any defense, only muffled screams. It takes Luke jumping out from a different direction before a cackling Ocheron can even "turn her attention to him" to stop the attack, and since we see Luke is off to the side - not even apart of Ocheron's vision - this means that her initial burst nearly defeated Luke, before she turned her attention solely to Teneniel;
The old hag nearly defeated Singing Clan witch Teneniel Djo and Luke Skywalker with one of her spells - she sucked the wind from their lungs and barraged them with Force lightning.
Star Wars: The Complete Encyclopedia: Ocheron
Teneniel leads Luke and friends to the exiled Nightsister, Barukka, who creates a perfect, miniature, living replica of Dathomir's imperial prison with the Force. Leia deems this "a talent beyond anything she had ever seen in Luke";
Leia could tell that only a great act of concentration let the woman manipulate the dirt this way. It was a talent beyond anything that Leia had ever seen in Luke, and it frightened her. If Barukka could do this, what kind of power did some of the other Nightsisters have?
Star Wars: The Courtship of Princess Leia
With that in mind, here's what Barukka thinks of Gethzerion;
On top of the tower, a tiny figure of a Nightsister walked through a door, stood looking up at the sky for a moment, as if staring directly into Barukka's face. Barukka suddenly shrieked, "Gethzerion!" and spun, smashing the figure with her staff.
Star Wars: The Courtship of Princess Leia
"Will you help us?" Teneniel asked. "We need to go to the prison, to find some parts for a ship. Can you tell us where to look?" Barukka stood unmoving for a long moment, frowning in concentration. She began to tremble, and whispered, "No, I can't." "Why can't you?" Luke said. "Gethzerion has no power over you." "She does!" Barukka said. "Can't you hear her calling me? She hunts me! Even now, she is stalking me!" "Does she call to you?" Luke asked. "Do you hear her voice in your head?" "Yes," Barukka said. "What does she say?" "She rails against me, curses me," Barukka answered. "Sometimes I hear her at night, as if she is standing by my bed."
Star Wars: The Courtship of Princess Leia
I could add in others, like Baritha, who dulls Teneniel's senses before choking her out, but this is enough text. Luke is a mediocre fighter by Nightsister standards, and gets demolished by a lower level witch's telekinesis. Teneniel is obliterated by the Nightsister spellcaster Ocheron, who "nearly defeats" the duo. Ocheron is an inferior of Gethzerion - "the most powerful" of the Nightsisters. Later, Barukka shows a talent beyond anything Leia had ever seen from Luke, and is petrified of Gethzerion. If Luke is well below a 20 year old light side witch, it's hard to fathom the gap between himself and Geth. At every turn we're told just how much stronger these low tier witches are than Luke, and just how insignifcant they are next to the Nightsister leader. So prepared or not, Gethzerion is pantsing Luke Skywalker every single time.
I hope this reinforced the Palpatine comments and fleshed out the gap between Gethzerion and 8 ABY Luke a little more. I'll end the post by saying; If you're voting for Gethzerion, you really should switch to Exar Kun, who scales directly over her Dathomir-amped version in Force power, has a more reliable track record with haxx - even limiting this to the basic ones he could channel through his hosts as a spirit - and is a "virtually unstoppable" lightsaber duelist. Any perceived edge Gethzerion has over other candidates, Kun does too, to a much greater extent.
Edit: Didn't realise this was Geth vs Revan only. Should have been Kun.
Geistalt
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan
March 16th 2020, 2:33 am
Teneniel > post-RotJ Luke Pog
Pretty sure this means she also scales above RotJ Vader.
Pretty sure this means she also scales above RotJ Vader.
Reynard (Ethanion)
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan
March 16th 2020, 11:35 am
Yes Geistat, as a matter of fact Luke’s growth rate after ROTJ should be faster than before ROTJ, so Teleniel may even scale from TPM Kenobi.
- Geistalt
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan
March 16th 2020, 11:36 am
Learn to spell.Reynard (Ethanion) wrote:Yes Geistat, as a matter of fact Luke’s growth rate after ROTJ should be faster than before ROTJ, so Teleniel may even scale from TPM Kenobi.
- Reynard (Ethanion)
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan
March 16th 2020, 11:50 am
I want to note that Palpatine met Gethezerion off of Dathomir.
Master AzrongerModerator
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan
March 16th 2020, 12:15 pm
Reynard (Ethanion) wrote:I want to note that Palpatine met Gethezerion off of Dathomir.
When? And quote?
_________________
- lorenzo.r.2ndLevel Three
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan
March 16th 2020, 12:19 pm
anybody know the vote percentages?
HellfireUnitLevel Six
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan
March 16th 2020, 12:20 pm
lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:anybody know the vote percentages?
Gethzerion - 16
Revan - 14
The lord of hungerLevel Two
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan
March 16th 2020, 12:38 pm
gethzerion = 17
revan= 15
revan= 15
- Geistalt
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan
March 16th 2020, 12:43 pm
Except Gianfi was already voting for Revan.
The Fallen WarriorLevel Four
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan
March 16th 2020, 12:46 pm
throw me down for geth
- The lord of hungerLevel Two
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan
March 16th 2020, 2:51 pm
gethzerion 18
revan 15
revan 15
- GuestGuest
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan
March 16th 2020, 2:52 pm
ISV has already voted Geth though. 
- HellfireUnitLevel Six
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan
March 16th 2020, 2:53 pm
Gianfi also voted for Revan already, LoH
Gianfi
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan
March 16th 2020, 2:54 pm
Yeah I am just reiterating the true deserver of the title as tenth strongest
- The lord of hungerLevel Two
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan
March 16th 2020, 2:58 pm
Gianfi wrote:Yeah I am just reiterating the true deserver of the title as tenth strongest
- The lord of hungerLevel Two
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan
March 16th 2020, 2:59 pm
ok so
geth 17
revan 14
geth 17
revan 14
The God Emperor
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan
March 16th 2020, 3:26 pm
The Outlander or Vaylin, probably the Outlander
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