- DarthAnt66Moderator
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan
March 15th 2020, 3:48 am
VOTE REVAN
Power:
As I explain in A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians, Freedon Nadd is more powerful than Darth Tenebrous. I recommend fully reading my argument, but a summary is as follows: Naga Sadow and Exar Kun had the ability to extend their corporeal life by draining energies released during the death of others. In 67 BBY, Darth Plagueis concludes with certainty that the fact they could do this means either they were "genuinely more powerful than him" or the galactic dark side tilt empowered them to be more powerful than him. Either option makes Sadow and Kun more powerful than Plagueis for the purposes of versus debating. Plagueis at this time is repeatedly indicated to be at least approaching Tenebrous in power, whereas Nadd was far more powerful than Sadow, revealing Nadd was more powerful than Tenebrous.
Indeed, let's consider that groundwork. Kun is indicated to have far surpassed Nadd, destroying Nadd's spirit and absorbing all his knowledge before undergoing many explicit booms in power (Kun is "now super-powerful" after Nadd's death and his "power in the ascendance." Kun masters Sith sorcery and becomes "an extremely powerful figure now." Kun is christened Dark Lord of the Sith by Marka Ragnos and is noted to become even more powerful. Kun then further "gains tremendous powers of the dark side." Kun retrieves the Dark Holocron, which contained teachings across "some hundred thousand years," and becomes "even stronger."). Malak wields "powers far greater than Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd" on the Star Forge. Revan defeats Star Forge Malak, multiple times consecutively, after fighting a droid army that would have killed any other Jedi alive, a Sith army, Bastila Shan, and the Infinite Army that would have killed Darth Revan. Revan later regains most of his Mandalorian Wars and Sith memories, which should have deepened his Force knowledge, healed his fractured spirit, and returned "memories of power" like it did to the Hero of Tython. Kreia states conflict and struggle triggers Force growth, and Revan uses his Force power and willpower to the max for three-centuries non-stop to wage mental war against Vitiate and the Dread Masters: "If anything, conflict and challenge may make the connection stronger, more intense ... It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you ... The growing anger, the rage, and the power it brings. Yet the power does not build without such struggle." Tenebrous also believes powers can be "stunted from disuse," so it follows the reverse is true as well. Revan's continuous growth here is consistent with Vitiate's also growing powers not eclipsing and overpowering him. Revan later resurrects from the dead, which is an experience that should greatly empower him like it did Darth Krayt. Considering his starting point and all that growth, I don't think it's far fetched to say Revan is at least approaching prequel trilogy heavyweights in power.
Immorality: Revan is a corpse powered through sheer willpower. Due to this unique condition, he has tanked attacks that would kill almost anyone else:
(*) Revan tanked internal kilometer-spanning energies through sheer willpower.
(*) Revan tanked multiple lightsaber attacks point-blank through sheer willpower.
(*) Revan tanked a planetary superweapon trying to strip away the life force from everything in the vicinity.
Teleportation: Revan has consistently teleported in the midst of combat, even while being attacked, losing, or on the brink-of-death. Through this ability:
(*) Revan can instantly disengage and adjust to his opponent's combat style whenever pressed.
(*) Revan has used teleportation and telekinesis simultaneously to defeat his opponents before they had time to realize what happened and adjusted. There will be a short time lag when the opponent realizes Revan vanished, then another time short lag before they reposition themselves against Revan, which Revan has seized on.
Battle Precognition: Revan can tactically anticipate attacks "seconds, maybe minutes," and he can overlay that with his Force precognition. Revan being able to both uniquely calculate attacks before they happen AND sense them before they happen provides a logical advantage over a Force user who could just do the former.
Force Knowledge: Revan studied a "planet-size archive of Sith knowledge" on Malachor V, "drew knowledge from" Korriban, explored Yavin IV, created the thought bomb, could use both the light side and the dark side to unleash the Force "in its purest form," pulled "centuries of knowledge" from Vitiate, could animate his corpse.
Lightsaber Abilities: Revan is easily among the top five most experienced Force user combatants of all time (probably behind just Luke and the Outlander). He learned everything Kreia and all the other Jedi Council Masters could teach him (presumably including all the lightsaber forms), repeatedly destroyed armies of Sith (including single-handedly driving the Sith Empire from their homeworld), beat down Malak, and contended with large strike teams of the galaxy's strongest champions.
Conclusion: Revan is laughably more powerful than Tenebrous, can tank lightsaber strikes and superweapons through sheer will, is insanely knowledgeable, experienced, and skilled, and has teleportation and precognition haxx. He is distinctively the most well-rounded and difficult combatant to beat out of the contenders.
[hideedit]
Power:
As I explain in A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians, Freedon Nadd is more powerful than Darth Tenebrous. I recommend fully reading my argument, but a summary is as follows: Naga Sadow and Exar Kun had the ability to extend their corporeal life by draining energies released during the death of others. In 67 BBY, Darth Plagueis concludes with certainty that the fact they could do this means either they were "genuinely more powerful than him" or the galactic dark side tilt empowered them to be more powerful than him. Either option makes Sadow and Kun more powerful than Plagueis for the purposes of versus debating. Plagueis at this time is repeatedly indicated to be at least approaching Tenebrous in power, whereas Nadd was far more powerful than Sadow, revealing Nadd was more powerful than Tenebrous.
Indeed, let's consider that groundwork. Kun is indicated to have far surpassed Nadd, destroying Nadd's spirit and absorbing all his knowledge before undergoing many explicit booms in power (Kun is "now super-powerful" after Nadd's death and his "power in the ascendance." Kun masters Sith sorcery and becomes "an extremely powerful figure now." Kun is christened Dark Lord of the Sith by Marka Ragnos and is noted to become even more powerful. Kun then further "gains tremendous powers of the dark side." Kun retrieves the Dark Holocron, which contained teachings across "some hundred thousand years," and becomes "even stronger."). Malak wields "powers far greater than Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd" on the Star Forge. Revan defeats Star Forge Malak, multiple times consecutively, after fighting a droid army that would have killed any other Jedi alive, a Sith army, Bastila Shan, and the Infinite Army that would have killed Darth Revan. Revan later regains most of his Mandalorian Wars and Sith memories, which should have deepened his Force knowledge, healed his fractured spirit, and returned "memories of power" like it did to the Hero of Tython. Kreia states conflict and struggle triggers Force growth, and Revan uses his Force power and willpower to the max for three-centuries non-stop to wage mental war against Vitiate and the Dread Masters: "If anything, conflict and challenge may make the connection stronger, more intense ... It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you ... The growing anger, the rage, and the power it brings. Yet the power does not build without such struggle." Tenebrous also believes powers can be "stunted from disuse," so it follows the reverse is true as well. Revan's continuous growth here is consistent with Vitiate's also growing powers not eclipsing and overpowering him. Revan later resurrects from the dead, which is an experience that should greatly empower him like it did Darth Krayt. Considering his starting point and all that growth, I don't think it's far fetched to say Revan is at least approaching prequel trilogy heavyweights in power.
Immorality: Revan is a corpse powered through sheer willpower. Due to this unique condition, he has tanked attacks that would kill almost anyone else:
(*) Revan tanked internal kilometer-spanning energies through sheer willpower.
(*) Revan tanked multiple lightsaber attacks point-blank through sheer willpower.
(*) Revan tanked a planetary superweapon trying to strip away the life force from everything in the vicinity.
Teleportation: Revan has consistently teleported in the midst of combat, even while being attacked, losing, or on the brink-of-death. Through this ability:
(*) Revan can instantly disengage and adjust to his opponent's combat style whenever pressed.
(*) Revan has used teleportation and telekinesis simultaneously to defeat his opponents before they had time to realize what happened and adjusted. There will be a short time lag when the opponent realizes Revan vanished, then another time short lag before they reposition themselves against Revan, which Revan has seized on.
Battle Precognition: Revan can tactically anticipate attacks "seconds, maybe minutes," and he can overlay that with his Force precognition. Revan being able to both uniquely calculate attacks before they happen AND sense them before they happen provides a logical advantage over a Force user who could just do the former.
Force Knowledge: Revan studied a "planet-size archive of Sith knowledge" on Malachor V, "drew knowledge from" Korriban, explored Yavin IV, created the thought bomb, could use both the light side and the dark side to unleash the Force "in its purest form," pulled "centuries of knowledge" from Vitiate, could animate his corpse.
Lightsaber Abilities: Revan is easily among the top five most experienced Force user combatants of all time (probably behind just Luke and the Outlander). He learned everything Kreia and all the other Jedi Council Masters could teach him (presumably including all the lightsaber forms), repeatedly destroyed armies of Sith (including single-handedly driving the Sith Empire from their homeworld), beat down Malak, and contended with large strike teams of the galaxy's strongest champions.
Conclusion: Revan is laughably more powerful than Tenebrous, can tank lightsaber strikes and superweapons through sheer will, is insanely knowledgeable, experienced, and skilled, and has teleportation and precognition haxx. He is distinctively the most well-rounded and difficult combatant to beat out of the contenders.
[hideedit]
- DarthAnt66Moderator
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan
March 15th 2020, 3:49 am
POINTS TO NOTE ABOUT GETHZERION
I'm not here to discredit Gethzerion. I thought HellfireUnit wrote a strong post about her. However, I have some disagreements to consider before voting for her.
A. Gethzerion & Palpatine
While Palpatine blocked Dathomir, in part, because of Gethzerion's personal power, he primarily did so because he specifically feared that she would "spread her influence to the rest of the galaxy" and then "one day perhaps even challenge him" afterwards (Dark Side Sourcebook). Fearing a galactic uprising led by a super powerful Force user is different than fearing that super powerful Force user on a combative level. The latter isn't really insinuated anywhere. All we know is that Palpatine was initially "stunned by the depth" of her powers, but that can also be attributed to the fact he just suddenly found out about a super-powerful Force user that he didn't know about prior. If Yoda or even Dooku suddenly popped up as a threat, I imagine he'd also be "stunned" by their power if he was otherwise happily unaware of their existence.
B. Gethzerion & Talzin
Gethzerion does not scale above Talzin. James Luceno's Restraint short story reveals that Talzin is explicitly far weaker than a teenage Maul, who tears through a group of smugglers that almost kill her and a dozen Nightsisters, as shown above. This is because almost all of Talzin's power is external--derived from the life energy and spirit ichor on Dathomir. On a "sterile place," Talzin is unable to perform basic Force abilities and is probably weaker than an average Jedi Knight. Even on Dathomir, Talzin is apparently far less powerful than Dooku. She hatches a convoluted assassination plot with Asajj and Savage rather than just attempt to overwhelm Dooku with her forces when he arrives. This strategy is especially risky because she can justify the latter to Sidious by saying Dooku was plotting to overthrow him with a new apprentice, but sneaking on board his ship and murdering him for revenge is harder to justify. She evidently fears Dooku may be able to overwhelm her forces alone. Talzin is only shown to be a match for Sidious "at the heart of her power" and after extensively draining the life energy of Dooku to make her far more powerful than ever.
Scaling Gethzerion about this uniquely amplified Talzin fails because we have never used "more powerful" quotes to scale Force users above circumstantially empowered characters. We do not scale Vitiate above Sith Meditation Sphere-amped Sadow, 19 BBY Anakin above oneness Anakin, 4 ABY Vader above Kaiburr crystal Vader, etc.
C. Gethzerion's Feats
They're very impressive, but two quick points here:
- I am not sure why Gethzerion downing a hundred storm troopers with Dathomir magick is being taken as definitively above even Kun, let alone Revan. Kun used Sith magick to freeze perhaps tens of thousands of senators and "blinded every scanning technician" of a planet of 1.3 billion.
- There is no question that Gethzerion is far more powerful than 8 ABY Luke, but note she specifically downed Luke "before Luke even recognized her evil intent," meaning he was not actively defending himself at the time (although it is still very impressive that she attacked Luke faster than his danger sense registered it).
D. Gethzerion's Disadvantage
She doesn't have a lightsaber. The rules of the tournament--created by The Ellimist--uniquely favors powerful Force users with lightsaber skills over just powerful Force users:The new metric to rank characters will be the extent that Darth Malgus would need an amp to defeat them. The extent that Malgus needs to be amped to defeat Gethzerion is just the extent needed to close the gap and strike her down without being overwhelmed. For Revan, closing the gap would just be the start of the engagement. Malgus would then have to deal with him in sabers, his durability, his teleportation, his precog, and still his Force powers all intermixed.
Altogether, Gethzerion--while incredibly powerful--has shown nothing to put her above Revan, let alone significantly. Revan's comparable or greater Force powers, coupled with Malgus' definitive far greater difficulty defeating him, ensures that he should get the #10 pick over her. Vote Revan.
I'm not here to discredit Gethzerion. I thought HellfireUnit wrote a strong post about her. However, I have some disagreements to consider before voting for her.
A. Gethzerion & Palpatine
While Palpatine blocked Dathomir, in part, because of Gethzerion's personal power, he primarily did so because he specifically feared that she would "spread her influence to the rest of the galaxy" and then "one day perhaps even challenge him" afterwards (Dark Side Sourcebook). Fearing a galactic uprising led by a super powerful Force user is different than fearing that super powerful Force user on a combative level. The latter isn't really insinuated anywhere. All we know is that Palpatine was initially "stunned by the depth" of her powers, but that can also be attributed to the fact he just suddenly found out about a super-powerful Force user that he didn't know about prior. If Yoda or even Dooku suddenly popped up as a threat, I imagine he'd also be "stunned" by their power if he was otherwise happily unaware of their existence.
B. Gethzerion & Talzin
He was preparing to make a break for the nearest hatchway when Mother Talzin called to him.
“Don’t leave us, Maul!”
He turned to see that she was on her feet, supported by one of the Nightsisters while the other was covering them.
“Maul!” Talzin repeated.
Confliction paralyzed him. Would his Master expect him to show sympathy? Even if the test had gone awry, Talzin might still be one of Sidious’ agents, and thus deserving of his help. Did the dark side of the Force ever permit self-sacrifice?
Cursing through his gritted teeth, he put his right arm through the bow and hooked it over his shoulder, then ran through a hail of blaster bolts to reach Talzin. Heaving her over his shoulder, he raced for the safety of the adjacent bay, the two Nightsisters steps behind.
“Our magicks don’t work in this sterile place,” Talzin said with abhorrence. “That’s why I could not sustain the illusion.”
Blaster bolts were ricocheting from the container. The two Nightsisters were returning fire.
“The illusion that nearly got all of us killed,” Maul said.
Talzin took her hand from the deep black-edged groove in her outer thigh and winced. Maul regarded the wound in stony silence. Black against red, like the zigzag markings on his face and head.
“On Dathomir I would be able to heal myself.”
Gethzerion does not scale above Talzin. James Luceno's Restraint short story reveals that Talzin is explicitly far weaker than a teenage Maul, who tears through a group of smugglers that almost kill her and a dozen Nightsisters, as shown above. This is because almost all of Talzin's power is external--derived from the life energy and spirit ichor on Dathomir. On a "sterile place," Talzin is unable to perform basic Force abilities and is probably weaker than an average Jedi Knight. Even on Dathomir, Talzin is apparently far less powerful than Dooku. She hatches a convoluted assassination plot with Asajj and Savage rather than just attempt to overwhelm Dooku with her forces when he arrives. This strategy is especially risky because she can justify the latter to Sidious by saying Dooku was plotting to overthrow him with a new apprentice, but sneaking on board his ship and murdering him for revenge is harder to justify. She evidently fears Dooku may be able to overwhelm her forces alone. Talzin is only shown to be a match for Sidious "at the heart of her power" and after extensively draining the life energy of Dooku to make her far more powerful than ever.
Scaling Gethzerion about this uniquely amplified Talzin fails because we have never used "more powerful" quotes to scale Force users above circumstantially empowered characters. We do not scale Vitiate above Sith Meditation Sphere-amped Sadow, 19 BBY Anakin above oneness Anakin, 4 ABY Vader above Kaiburr crystal Vader, etc.
C. Gethzerion's Feats
They're very impressive, but two quick points here:
- I am not sure why Gethzerion downing a hundred storm troopers with Dathomir magick is being taken as definitively above even Kun, let alone Revan. Kun used Sith magick to freeze perhaps tens of thousands of senators and "blinded every scanning technician" of a planet of 1.3 billion.
- There is no question that Gethzerion is far more powerful than 8 ABY Luke, but note she specifically downed Luke "before Luke even recognized her evil intent," meaning he was not actively defending himself at the time (although it is still very impressive that she attacked Luke faster than his danger sense registered it).
D. Gethzerion's Disadvantage
She doesn't have a lightsaber. The rules of the tournament--created by The Ellimist--uniquely favors powerful Force users with lightsaber skills over just powerful Force users:The new metric to rank characters will be the extent that Darth Malgus would need an amp to defeat them. The extent that Malgus needs to be amped to defeat Gethzerion is just the extent needed to close the gap and strike her down without being overwhelmed. For Revan, closing the gap would just be the start of the engagement. Malgus would then have to deal with him in sabers, his durability, his teleportation, his precog, and still his Force powers all intermixed.
Altogether, Gethzerion--while incredibly powerful--has shown nothing to put her above Revan, let alone significantly. Revan's comparable or greater Force powers, coupled with Malgus' definitive far greater difficulty defeating him, ensures that he should get the #10 pick over her. Vote Revan.
- Geistalt
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan
March 15th 2020, 4:06 am
You're oppressing the women by saying their lack of lightsabers disqualifies them
- Geistalt
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan
March 15th 2020, 5:44 am
I'm disappointed by the fact that he didn't use Revan's obvious feats or scaling, namely the fact that he defeated Malak while massively pre-prime, annihilated Nyriss when two Force-users who were strong in their own right failed to lay a finger on her, or fought 2 teams composed of some of the greatest warriors in the galaxy on Yavin 4, one of which used Battle Meditation.
I'm still voting Gethzerion unless people suddenly change their opinions. I love voting for a winner.
I'm still voting Gethzerion unless people suddenly change their opinions. I love voting for a winner.
- The LostLevel Five
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan
March 15th 2020, 6:47 am
DarthAnt66 wrote:VOTE REVAN
As I explain in A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians, Freedon Nadd is more powerful than Darth Tenebrous.
*cough*
- BreakofDawnLevel Seven
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan
March 15th 2020, 11:13 am
If anything lets Geth down in this round, it's her lack of a lightsaber, but honestly I think Geth is smart enough to have figured out a way to compensate for this with her magic.
- The lord of hungerLevel Two
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan
March 15th 2020, 12:51 pm
Not convinced at all about the revan case
Still gethzerion
Still gethzerion
- Reynard (Ethanion)
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan
March 15th 2020, 3:57 pm
DarthAnt66 wrote:
D. Gethzerion's Disadvantage
[size=32]She doesn't have a lightsaber. The rules of the tournament--created by The Ellimist--uniquely favors powerful Force users with lightsaber skills over just powerful Force users:[/size]The new metric to rank characters will be the extent that Darth Malgus would need an amp to defeat them.[size=32] The extent that Malgus needs to be amped to defeat Gethzerion is just the extent needed to close the gap and strike her down without being overwhelmed. For Revan, closing the gap would just be [/size]the start[size=32] of the engagement. Malgus would then have to deal with him in sabers, his durability, his teleportation, his precog, and still his [/size][size=32]Force powers[/size][size=32] all intermixed. [/size]
[size=32]Altogether, Gethzerion--while incredibly powerful--has shown nothing to put her above Revan, let alone significantly. Revan's comparable or greater Force powers, coupled with Malgus' definitive far greater difficulty defeating him, ensures that he should get the #10 pick over her. Vote Revan.[/size]
Gethezerion does have a lightsaber, and she can use it too.
Just in-case that loses her votes, also keep in mind her very first instinct in battle is to immediately fuck with someone’s internal organs, so I don’t think the lightsaber would come into play until Malgus became powerful enough to power through that.
- DarthAnt66Moderator
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan
March 15th 2020, 11:04 pm
ILS wrote:DarthAnt66 wrote:VOTE REVAN
As I explain in A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians, Freedon Nadd is more powerful than Darth Tenebrous.
*cough*
Always a pleasure.
- AncientPowerSuspect Hero | Level Four
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan
March 15th 2020, 11:13 pm
I maintain my challenge to Gethzerion supporters, given my ironclad case for Exar Kun > Gethzerion.
- EmperorCaedusLevel Three
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan
March 16th 2020, 1:01 am
Originally, my vote came down to two contendors, Gethzerion and Exar Kun. Though the case for Gethzerion is definitely viable for future spots on this list, I found @LadyKulvax's case to be ironclad, which firmly puts Spirit Kun above Gethzerion. Then, Ant posted his Revan case. I found it to be great as well, but he uses the Malak > Kun quote. Obviously, if Malak was > Kun, then Revan would be miles ahead of Kun. After giving the Malak > Kun debate (DarthAnt66's reply to LadyKulvax) a reread, I have come to the conclusion that I no longer support the credibility of the Malak > Kun quote. Thus, I don't believe Revan can scale from Kun.
Though Revan and Kun have their advantages and disadvantages when compared to one another, Due to the stipulations of this tourny (i.e, how much of an amp would Malgus need), Malgus would need a Kun+ amp because not only would he need the power to match Kun, he would need to take into account his haxx cortosis armor, and the vast amount of force knowledge/esoteric techniques Kun has that no other being in the mythos would have access to, that even gave Luke a run for his money when he learned all of the Banite techniques. So while Revan is definitely a serious contender, I have come to the conclusion that Kun is, simply put, more deserving of the #10 spot.
I change my vote to Exar Kun
Though Revan and Kun have their advantages and disadvantages when compared to one another, Due to the stipulations of this tourny (i.e, how much of an amp would Malgus need), Malgus would need a Kun+ amp because not only would he need the power to match Kun, he would need to take into account his haxx cortosis armor, and the vast amount of force knowledge/esoteric techniques Kun has that no other being in the mythos would have access to, that even gave Luke a run for his money when he learned all of the Banite techniques. So while Revan is definitely a serious contender, I have come to the conclusion that Kun is, simply put, more deserving of the #10 spot.
I change my vote to Exar Kun
- KingofBladesLevel Three
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan
March 16th 2020, 1:03 am
DarthAnt66 created an excellent overall case for why Revan deserves the #10 spot over Gethzerion, however I feel that some people are still unsure of how he stacks up to a supposed juggernaut like Geth in respect to power. So I will be going into greater detail on Revan’s power by examining a lynchpin nearly as important as the baseline Ant established through Tenebrous scaling. Note if you haven't already read Ant's post I recommend you go and read it, as I'm picking up where he left off in terms of direct power scaling.
The Hero of Tython
To give a brief overview of the HoT’s growth let me quote myself from the apprenticeship tournament(keep this excerpt fresh in your mind as I'll be occasionally referring back to it):
While a lot of the scaling I delve into isn’t directly relevant towards my case for Revan, I feel it paints a picture holistically; that picture being that the Hero isn't far below Revan Reborn. The HoT is even portrayed as a supreme champion of the light, who succeeds where Revan ultimately failed. Now the best comparison that can be made when discussing Revan Reborn and the Hero would be their respective performances against the Sith Emperor Vitiate. Revan Reborn faced off against a Vitiate who was at full power and stood as a nigh equal. He was able to absorb nearly all of the energy from a charged lightning barrage from Vitiate despite being on a DS nexus and having less time to gather energy:
Revan only receiving 3rd degree burns from a barrage stated to be “infinitely more powerful” than lightning capable of ashing a powerful force user like Nyriss is indicative of Revan successfully managing to contain most of the energy. When you factor in the aforementioned negative circumstances at play it's entirely possible that Revan would have successfully redirected the entirety of Vitiate’s barrage if they had fought on neutral ground and if you gave Revan more time to gather energy. At the very least, it is clear that Revan Reborn and Novel Vitiate are peers. Fast forward 300 years to the Hero’s showdown with the emperor. Vitiate is stated to be “no match” for the Hero. It should be noted that Vitiate was weakened due to his galaxy ritual being stopped. However I’d be remiss if I didn’t point out that the Hero gave Vitiate extra time to recover and in the process also wasted some of his own energy in the process.
In the end though, Vitiate was still weakened by some margin and while he was no match for the Hero, this fact makes me unwilling to claim the Hero is outright superior to Revan Reborn as of Act 3(not that I'm stopping you if you wanna think that). I think it's safer to put them as peers.
Rishi Growth
While on the planet Rishi, the Hero of Tython’s memories of his time as a sith under Vitiate’s influence, which were repressed once Orgus freed him at the end of Act 2, are restored.
“You were under his control. His darkness soaked through to your spirit. When we freed you you pushed the memories of his training down deep”
It is a recurring theme that the Hero has an enormous amount of potential that is being limited by his jedi training.
The Hero becoming a sith should’ve led to rapid and massive power growth intuitively. A sentiment that I should note is supported by Nick Gillard, who refers to the growth one experiences after turning to the dark side as “Force LSD”. Luckily we have a reference point to corroborate such intuition. As I explain in the excerpt from my post in the apprenticeship tournament, The Hero of Tython was more powerful than Jedi Tol Braga by the End of Act 1.However after being corrupted by Vitiate and turned into a sith, Tol Braga had grown so powerful that he was capable of giving the Act 3 Hero a hard fight:
If we again reference my excerpt, I demonstrated that the Hero grows radically from the end of Act 1 to Act 3. So Tol Braga giving Act 3 HoT a hard fight where he was once sub EoAct 1 HoT shows that the growth he experienced from Vitiate’s training was immense. Logically the growth the Hero would’ve experienced as a sith should be even greater or at the very least on par because he is a much greater prodigy than Tol Braga. This immense growth the Hero experiences on Rishi would make him decisively more powerful than Revan Reborn.
Yavin IV
It is this juggernaut of a Hero of Tython that Revan faces on Yavin IV. If the scaling ended here and this Hero defeated Revan after a brutal fight, I would still argue that Revan deserves the spot over Geth. Only it doesn’t end here. The Hero was being amped by Satele Shan’s Bastila meditation which was said to greatly increase the combat effectiveness of those affected.
The Hero didn't face Revan alone either. He had the help of Shae Vizla, Lana Beniko, Spirit Revan and chiefly Darth Marr, a Sith Lord so powerful he wasn't fazed at all by someone who "utterly destroyed" a Dark Councilor. Note all the aforementioned individuals would also be considerably amped from Satele's BM.
To sum everything up. If you read Ant's post like I recommended then you've seen the frightening degree to which KotOR Revan scales above Tenebrous. Now take that Revan and give him a massive power boost of similar or greater magnitude than the one that allowed Tol Braga to jump entire tiers. Then give him another boost such that it is said to "greatly increase" his combat effectiveness. That is the Hero that Revan faced despite also having to divide his attention facing multiple other deadly individuals. And he almost won. Darthant66 has also provided a good case for Geth not being above the PT titans. Meanwhile I have demonstrated that Revan definitely has the raw power of a PT heavy weight by virtue of astronomical superiority over Tenebrous. So with Geth's seemingly enormous power advantage rendered moot, Revan's extraordinary combat acumen, force mastery and insane durability should make him the clear choice for this round of the tournament.
The Hero of Tython
To give a brief overview of the HoT’s growth let me quote myself from the apprenticeship tournament(keep this excerpt fresh in your mind as I'll be occasionally referring back to it):
As early as Act 1, the HoT was stated to be the most powerful member of the Jedi Order (Link) making the HoT superior to individuals such as Tol Braga and Act 1 Barsen'thor. Tol Braga was powerful enough to stalemate a member of the Dark Council in a duel which lasted for three days (Link). The HoT at this stage was powerful enough to defeat the Sith Lord Darth Angral in combat. Darth Angral was offered a seat on the Dark Council 20 years prior, after the Sacking of Coruscant. It's very likely that Angral grew considerably in this time as he was preparing for the moment where the war against the Jedi would begin anew (Link). Not only that, but it's also very likely that Angral was rage amped as of his battle against the HoT, as the HoT was the man who killed his son (Link). So as early as the end of Act 1 the HoT can be established to be above standard Dark Councilor tier power. And that's only the beginning. By the end of Act 2 the HoT was capable of stalemating Lord Scourge whereas in mid Act 2 Scourge is confident that he could've defeated both the HoT and the ex Dark Councilor Sajar simultaneously (Link), This demonstrates that the HoT has grown far beyond Dark Councilor tier power by the end of Act 2. Lord Scourge's status in the Sith Empire also corroborates the idea that EoAct 2 HoT is beyond DC tier power. His power is said to be so great that the Dark Council fears him (Link). Then by the end of Act 3, the HoT has grown so powerful that despite being on an enormously powerful nexus in Dromund Kaas, Act 3 Vitiate is stated to be no match for him (Link). Comparatively, Scourge admits that even he would be utterly dominated by Vitiate's power (Link). Thus, EoAct 3 HoT has grown far more powerful than even the DC++ power he wielded at the EoAct 2. Despite the enormous power that the HoT possesses by the end of Act 3, both Vitiate and Scourge assert that there is an enormous amount of untapped latent power in the HoT. Given that the average power of a Dark Councilor is unlikely to vary significantly across eras, it cannot be denied that parallels can be drawn between the absurd degree to which both Act 3 HoT and Revan Reborn scale wildly above DC tier power.
While a lot of the scaling I delve into isn’t directly relevant towards my case for Revan, I feel it paints a picture holistically; that picture being that the Hero isn't far below Revan Reborn. The HoT is even portrayed as a supreme champion of the light, who succeeds where Revan ultimately failed. Now the best comparison that can be made when discussing Revan Reborn and the Hero would be their respective performances against the Sith Emperor Vitiate. Revan Reborn faced off against a Vitiate who was at full power and stood as a nigh equal. He was able to absorb nearly all of the energy from a charged lightning barrage from Vitiate despite being on a DS nexus and having less time to gather energy:
The Emperor rose to his feet, his robes smoking and singed where the lighting
had struck him. His black eyes flashed red, and he raised both hands high above
his head.
Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure
dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly calculated his
options. Realizing he couldn’t close the gap between them quickly enough to
stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him,
ready to catch and absorb the Emperor’s attack.
A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan
tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more
powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.
Revan’s body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his
body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking
to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more
power into him.
Revan only receiving 3rd degree burns from a barrage stated to be “infinitely more powerful” than lightning capable of ashing a powerful force user like Nyriss is indicative of Revan successfully managing to contain most of the energy. When you factor in the aforementioned negative circumstances at play it's entirely possible that Revan would have successfully redirected the entirety of Vitiate’s barrage if they had fought on neutral ground and if you gave Revan more time to gather energy. At the very least, it is clear that Revan Reborn and Novel Vitiate are peers. Fast forward 300 years to the Hero’s showdown with the emperor. Vitiate is stated to be “no match” for the Hero. It should be noted that Vitiate was weakened due to his galaxy ritual being stopped. However I’d be remiss if I didn’t point out that the Hero gave Vitiate extra time to recover and in the process also wasted some of his own energy in the process.
In the end though, Vitiate was still weakened by some margin and while he was no match for the Hero, this fact makes me unwilling to claim the Hero is outright superior to Revan Reborn as of Act 3(not that I'm stopping you if you wanna think that). I think it's safer to put them as peers.
Rishi Growth
While on the planet Rishi, the Hero of Tython’s memories of his time as a sith under Vitiate’s influence, which were repressed once Orgus freed him at the end of Act 2, are restored.
“You were under his control. His darkness soaked through to your spirit. When we freed you you pushed the memories of his training down deep”
It is a recurring theme that the Hero has an enormous amount of potential that is being limited by his jedi training.
The Hero becoming a sith should’ve led to rapid and massive power growth intuitively. A sentiment that I should note is supported by Nick Gillard, who refers to the growth one experiences after turning to the dark side as “Force LSD”. Luckily we have a reference point to corroborate such intuition. As I explain in the excerpt from my post in the apprenticeship tournament, The Hero of Tython was more powerful than Jedi Tol Braga by the End of Act 1.However after being corrupted by Vitiate and turned into a sith, Tol Braga had grown so powerful that he was capable of giving the Act 3 Hero a hard fight:
If we again reference my excerpt, I demonstrated that the Hero grows radically from the end of Act 1 to Act 3. So Tol Braga giving Act 3 HoT a hard fight where he was once sub EoAct 1 HoT shows that the growth he experienced from Vitiate’s training was immense. Logically the growth the Hero would’ve experienced as a sith should be even greater or at the very least on par because he is a much greater prodigy than Tol Braga. This immense growth the Hero experiences on Rishi would make him decisively more powerful than Revan Reborn.
Yavin IV
It is this juggernaut of a Hero of Tython that Revan faces on Yavin IV. If the scaling ended here and this Hero defeated Revan after a brutal fight, I would still argue that Revan deserves the spot over Geth. Only it doesn’t end here. The Hero was being amped by Satele Shan’s Bastila meditation which was said to greatly increase the combat effectiveness of those affected.
The Hero didn't face Revan alone either. He had the help of Shae Vizla, Lana Beniko, Spirit Revan and chiefly Darth Marr, a Sith Lord so powerful he wasn't fazed at all by someone who "utterly destroyed" a Dark Councilor. Note all the aforementioned individuals would also be considerably amped from Satele's BM.
To sum everything up. If you read Ant's post like I recommended then you've seen the frightening degree to which KotOR Revan scales above Tenebrous. Now take that Revan and give him a massive power boost of similar or greater magnitude than the one that allowed Tol Braga to jump entire tiers. Then give him another boost such that it is said to "greatly increase" his combat effectiveness. That is the Hero that Revan faced despite also having to divide his attention facing multiple other deadly individuals. And he almost won. Darthant66 has also provided a good case for Geth not being above the PT titans. Meanwhile I have demonstrated that Revan definitely has the raw power of a PT heavy weight by virtue of astronomical superiority over Tenebrous. So with Geth's seemingly enormous power advantage rendered moot, Revan's extraordinary combat acumen, force mastery and insane durability should make him the clear choice for this round of the tournament.
- AncientPowerSuspect Hero | Level Four
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan
March 16th 2020, 1:07 am
Let's face it, both Revan and Exar Kun deserve #10 before Gethzerion and even then I'd put Kueller above her too given all available evidence:
https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t2782p50-top-fifteen-tournament-10-vote-now#52604
https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t2782p50-top-fifteen-tournament-10-vote-now#52604
- AncientPowerSuspect Hero | Level Four
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan
March 16th 2020, 1:13 am
EmperorCaedus wrote:Originally, my vote came down to two contendors, Gethzerion and Exar Kun. Though the case for Gethzerion is definitely viable for future spots on this list, I found @LadyKulvax's case to be ironclad, which firmly puts Spirit Kun above Gethzerion. Then, Ant posted his Revan case. I found it to be great as well, but he uses the Malak > Kun quote. Obviously, if Malak was > Kun, then Revan would be miles ahead of Kun. After giving the Malak > Kun debate (DarthAnt66's reply to LadyKulvax) a reread, I have come to the conclusion that I no longer support the credibility of the Malak > Kun quote. Thus, I don't believe Revan can scale from Kun.
Though Revan and Kun have their advantages and disadvantages when compared to one another, Due to the stipulations of this tourny (i.e, how much of an amp would Malgus need), Malgus would need a Kun+ amp because not only would he need the power to match Kun, he would need to take into account his haxx cortosis armor, and the vast amount of force knowledge/esoteric techniques Kun has that no other being in the mythos would have access to, that even gave Luke a run for his money when he learned all of the Banite techniques. So while Revan is definitely a serious contender, I have come to the conclusion that Kun is, simply put, more deserving of the #10 spot.
I change my vote to Exar Kun
Welcome, my friend.
- DarthAnt66Moderator
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan
March 16th 2020, 1:26 am
I'm still voting Gethzerion unless people suddenly change their opinions. I love voting for a winner.[hideedit]
He's down a few votes now but the tide is in his favor.
- Geistalt
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan
March 16th 2020, 1:33 am
Based on what, that one vote from ArkhamAsylum?
- HellfireUnitLevel Six
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan
March 16th 2020, 1:39 am
My post about Gethzerion will be up soon, stay tuned folks.
- DarthAnt66Moderator
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan
March 16th 2020, 1:42 am
GETHZERZION AND REVAN ARE IN THE RUNNING FOR #10.
All votes for Gethzerion (15) and Revan (9) will stay. Anyone who hasn't voted or voted for another may choose between the two. Voting ends in 96 hours.
LIST OF VOTES:
All votes for Gethzerion (15) and Revan (9) will stay. Anyone who hasn't voted or voted for another may choose between the two. Voting ends in 96 hours.
LIST OF VOTES:
- Spoiler:
Gethzerion (15):
KelDorianUnit
ILS
Jedi_Jesus
Bart
The lord of hunger
Syndiciate
BoD
Geistalt
Fated Xtasy
> Korriban
Azronger
Heathen
Haggis
Shioz
Reynard (Ethanion)
Revan (9):
IG
DarthAnt66
KingofBlades
Gianfi
Cheth
Necromancer76
ScionOfSkywalker77
Ziggy
NotAA3
Exar Kun (3):
@LadyKulvax
@Jake
@EmperorCaedus
Darish Vol (3):
@DarthAdi
@MasterCilghal
@Blade_of_Dorin
The Outlander (2):
@TenebrousWay
@Praxis
Darth Tenebrous (2):
@CuckedCurry
@Meatpants
Darth Caedus (1):
@lorenzo.r.2nd
[hideedit]
- PraxisModerator | Champion of the Light
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan
March 16th 2020, 1:52 am
Revan
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