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Geistalt
Geistalt

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan - Page 6 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan

March 10th 2020, 11:15 pm
I find it funny that Krayt's deemed weaker than that dark horse Nyax by most people in these threads.
AncientPower
AncientPower
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan - Page 6 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan

March 10th 2020, 11:50 pm
BoD wrote:
Ah, I interpreted your use of the word recognize as :acknowledge the existence, validity, or legality of. My mistake

No problem. It was meant as in "Leland acknowledges power levels but doesn't record them." Poor phrasing on my part. 


So now that that's cleared up, please explain how the Chee quote you provided invalidates the chee quote on supremacy quotes

Explain how my quote invalidates a quote that I've just seen for the first time, you mean. Since you asked:




So it may be best to say that he was simply amongst the most powerful Sith along with Sidious and whoever else there may be. It you definitively say that one Sith was the most powerful then by definition any others that you create in the EU must be inferior so I doubt the continuity people make such absolutes about the powerfulness of the characters.

So as far as Chee is concerned, "the most powerful" should be taken as "one of the most powerful", further emphasised by what is actually said in the question:



Being a huge Marka Ragnos fan, I just wanted to know where he ranks among the most powerful sith lords ever. The way he was always described made me think that he was the most powerful Sith Lord ever until sources came up with Sidious being the most powerful. Can you shed some light on this please?

So Chee is saying not to take "the most powerful" as an absolute and instead apply it in a more relativistic way, that way being "amongst" rather than "the definitive" most powerful, a view I've held for a long time (hence why I have several Sith above ROTS Sidious who has some of these quotes).

We're in agreement here, I don't think the Sheev quotes are trash to be discarded but not some absolute canon that hardcaps all other Sith. Sheev is demonstratably not untouchable against other Sith even 19 years after ROTS. So obviously the supremacy quotes don't prevent, for example, Exar Kun's own accolades and feats and scaling chains from being plausible. In fact the opposite is true.
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan - Page 6 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan

March 11th 2020, 12:09 am
🇪🇭
The Lost
The Lost
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Level Five

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan - Page 6 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan

March 11th 2020, 12:25 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Geistalt wrote:I find it funny that Krayt's deemed weaker than that dark horse Nyax by most people in these threads.
Odd times we debate in, certainly.
HellfireUnit
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan - Page 6 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan

March 11th 2020, 3:00 am
A response against Kun/Gethzerion will be made in the upcoming days.
Geistalt
Geistalt

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan - Page 6 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan

March 11th 2020, 4:10 pm
DarthAnt66 wrote:Revan wins. I'll be posting arguments for him throughout the week.
I have yet to see you keep this promise.
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan - Page 6 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan

March 11th 2020, 4:17 pm
Working on something instead--though it still ties greatly into my case for Revan here. ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan - Page 6 1289255181
Geistalt
Geistalt

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan - Page 6 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan

March 11th 2020, 5:18 pm
Mace should be ranked over Plagueis and possibly tied with Yoda, because he has an inherent "amp"—an advantage that's part of the nature of how he duels—against dark-siders that increases the stronger the dark-sider gets.

That and I think he's a better match for RotS Sidious than Plagueis ever could've been.

Doesn't really matter. Plagueis is stronger in the Force (although this is specifically in terms of combative ability).
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan - Page 6 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan

March 11th 2020, 5:44 pm
Plagueis and Mace have already been ranked, but you will be able to vote for characters to be repositioned after round #10.
NevesYtneves (DC77)
NevesYtneves (DC77)
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan - Page 6 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan

March 11th 2020, 6:56 pm
Vol doesn't have a shot so I'll go Revan.
HellfireUnit
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan - Page 6 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan

March 11th 2020, 7:23 pm
ScionOfSkywalker77 wrote:Vol doesn't have a shot so I'll go Revan.

How about Gethzerion?  ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan - Page 6 1019854026
Necromancer76
Necromancer76

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan - Page 6 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan

March 11th 2020, 7:38 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Revan
AncientPower
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan - Page 6 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan

March 11th 2020, 8:09 pm
To further support the relativity of Exar Kun's spirit, both Luke and Kueller agree that Luke has faced better than Kueller and this is consistent with the naming of Exar Kun and Reborn Palpatine in the book:

New Rebellion wrote:"I've fought better than you, Kueller," Luke said. The light-saber felt odd in his hand. "And won."

"Years ago, Skywalker. You've become complacent." Kueller slashed at Luke. Luke parried, the electric clash of blades ringing in the night air. Then Kueller whirled and blocked several bursts of blaster fire. Leia peeked out of the bay doors.

New Rebellion wrote:She [Leia] wished she had the same certainty. This Kueller had more Force capability than anyone she had encountered in years. Except Exar Kun, and he had been a spirit. Kueller was alive.

He was using these deaths to replenish his own well of hatred. The dark side ate people from within, but while it did so, it gave them too much power.

He appeared to have more power than she had. More power than Luke.

New Rebellion wrote:The presence had neared. It was strong in the dark side. He could feel the ripples, feel a power he hadn't felt in a living being since he encountered the Emperor. Luke had never had a student that powerful, of that he was certain.

New Rebellion wrote:She raised her head. She was stunning, he had to give her that, with her bright green eyes, and red, almost auburn, hair. A woman to respect. A woman that no one ever should tamper with. "I haven't felt power like this since Palpatine in the early days. If this continues, Han, Kueller will be stronger than the Emperor ever was, and he'll do it quicker."

This is further supported by these quotes that support Exar Kun being near Emperor Palpatine:

Champions of the Force wrote:If Kyp could face this final test, Luke would know he'd passed through the fire of his testing-tempered by forces as dire and powerful as those Luke himself had endured.

Specters of the Past wrote:There in front of him, starkly visible against the blackness of space, he could see the faint images of Emperor Palpatine and Exar Kun, two of the greatest focal points of the dark side he’d ever had to face. They were standing there before him, gazing back at him. And laughing.

Children of the Jedi wrote:The mightiest Jedi in the universe, he reflected bitterly--that he knew of, anyway - come the destroyer of the Sun Crusher, the slayer of evil, who'd defeated the recloned Emperor and the Sith Lord Exar Kun. . .

Noting that this is Exar Kun in his spiritual state which is far weaker than in his living form:

Tales of the Jedi wrote:"The wall of light generated by many Jedi becomes a crushing blow for the light side of the Force. A flood that sweeps down to extinguish the corrupted power of the Sith and to defeat Exar Kun."

Kun's power is obliterated and he used the life force of every Massassi just to escape death so he can come back again:

Dark Side Sourcebook wrote:Exar Kun-who didn't technically die so much as merge with the dark side and retain his identity-resisted the dissolution of his spirit by drawing on the remarkable focusing energies of the Massassi temples on Yavin 4.

Exar Kun, Dark Apprentice wrote:"When the Jedi combined their might and came here to this moon to fight me, they unleashed such power that I had to drain every last one of the Massassi just to trap my spirit within these temples-to survive so that I could one day come back."

Jedi VS. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force wrote:The Jedi chased Exar Kun to his stronghold on Yavin IV and used their combined power to strike him down and annihilate his Massassi warriors. However, Exar Kun was able to escape death by using Sith sorcery to preserve his spirit in the Massassi temples.

And Kun in Jedi Academy is no different, he has lost all of his Force reserves:

Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:Exar Kun passed the millennia in uneasy slumber.
A few scant years later, Kun is brought sharply awake by the arrival of not one or two, but a dozen humans blazing with the power he needed to live again. Eagerly but cautiously, Kun observes each arrival, probing for weaknesses and the power he needs to restore his lost reserves of energy.

He's literally trying to resurrect and return to human form, back to his prime, where he's far more powerful:

Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:For a time, he is able to subside by feeding on their residual energy, but soon he will need worshippers if he is to grow more active. With a nucleus of followers to provide him energy-providing anger and fear, Kun will have enough power to escape his exile and take on human form.

Jedi VS. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force wrote:Exar Kun corrupted Luke’s most powerful student, Kyp Durron, and attempted to resurrect himself by draining power from Luke and the other trainees.

Exar Kun is objectively more powerful in TOTJ than JA, by an enormous degree. Yet in his spiritual form is still up there with Kueller and Palpatine which is higher than Gethzerion or Caedus could hope to be.


Last edited by LadyKulvax on March 11th 2020, 9:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
Jake
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan - Page 6 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan

March 11th 2020, 8:32 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Geth is definitely strong but there are too many dark siders that come after who make her look like a joke. Kun is one of them, he's got my vote.
AncientPower
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan - Page 6 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan

March 11th 2020, 9:26 pm
Based Jake. ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan - Page 6 2864379292
Fated Xtasy
Fated Xtasy

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan - Page 6 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan

March 11th 2020, 9:35 pm
I'll cast my vote for Getherzion or whatever her name is.
The Fallen Warrior
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan - Page 6 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan

March 11th 2020, 9:59 pm
I would Vote Kun but that would be supporting Revan in a lot of minds and because of how Kun is poisoned Geth has my vote
AncientPower
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan - Page 6 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan

March 11th 2020, 10:08 pm
Geth is literally sub-Exar, like there's no way around it.
The lord of hunger
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan - Page 6 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan

March 11th 2020, 10:51 pm
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Exar is sub Tpm maul  ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan - Page 6 3344068304
BreakofDawn
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan - Page 6 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan

March 11th 2020, 10:57 pm
I'm very interested to hear some of the non-Ant reasoning for voting Revan.
AncientPower
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan - Page 6 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan

March 11th 2020, 11:53 pm
The lord of hunger wrote:Exar is sub Tpm maul  ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan - Page 6 3344068304

That quote isn't even Legends, lmfao.
The Lost
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March 12th 2020, 2:26 am
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan - Page 6 20200310

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan - Page 6 20200311

Forgive the shit scans from my EPUB copy of Jedi vs. Sith Essential Guide to the Force. Per Sidious' word a Sith spirit/essence retains their power after death, but it is a wearisome and pitiful existence because they cannot manifest their powers without a physical body. Corran Horn states that there was no means by which he could know or measure how powerful Kun's spirit was, just that he imagined it took some effort for him to defeat a Jedi Master.

Kun absorbed the Force Essence of the entire Massassi species, as well as his own midichlorian rich body (remember that Bane used his own as fuel for his attempted Essence Transfer against Zannah, which he nearly succeeded in despite this usually being "nearly impossible" against a resisting target even for DE Sidious) as he tethered his spirit to Yavin IV. While a theoretical Reborn!Kun in a new body with that new spiritual power is a vaguely terrifying prospect, he at no point achieved that power in his body.

Thus his feats during JA are marred by the fact 1. He's more powerful than ever before 2. Nobody has any way to measure his power reliably and 3. He did not ever achieve this level of power as a physical being, so unless we're debating Spirit!Kun, there's no need to try and equate anything he has done in Jedi Academy to anything he did in life. You can argue that he has some of the same knowledge perhaps, but that's all.

Now if we are using spirit Kun, seeing as he is completely gimped by the fight not being on Yavin IV, and also because he can't properly manifest his powers, I would still have to vote for Geth. She's simply more impressive and clear cut in the power she has demonstrated.
Master Azronger
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan - Page 6 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan

March 12th 2020, 2:32 am
Message reputation : 100% (4 votes)
Count me for Gethzerion support as well.

Spirit Kun will dissolve on the spot without an anchor.

_________________
★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan - Page 6 Sheev_sig_3
Geistalt
Geistalt

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan - Page 6 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan

March 12th 2020, 2:59 am
I guess I have trouble making up my mind on which chars deserve each spot (which are the strongest).

Always in motion, the consensus is.

But Gethzerion being an opponent Palpatine was wary of secures her my vote. That, her Force Lightning, and her giving Luke a brain hemorrhage.
The lord of hunger
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan - Page 6 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan

March 12th 2020, 3:13 am
LadyKulvax wrote:
The lord of hunger wrote:Exar is sub Tpm maul  ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #10 - Revan - Page 6 3344068304

That quote isn't even Legends, lmfao.
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