Contradictory fights

Im curious on what u guys think are the most contradictory fights on SW. Contradictory between the fans, by the way. Fights that no one set view is shared. Im talking about Vitiate vs Revan, or Palpatine vs Luke, in case anybody needs examples. Just list two or three of them if u feel like it. I actually want to make a follow-up thread based on the answers given here, in case anybody cares, regarding people's views on some of the main ones mentioned here.

Here are some off the top of my head:

1. Vader vs Obi Wan in RotS

- Was Vader hindered? 

2. Caedus vs Aurra Sing

- Was Caedus distracted due to Allana? 
- Was Caedus rage amped?

3. Caedus vs Luke in Inferno

- Was Caedus actually blitzed?

4. Caedus vs Juke

- How powerful is Juke?

Cade vs. Krayt, for some reason

Azronger wrote:Cade vs. Krayt, for some reason

That was never a thing. Legit worse than the Muur shit.

I'd say:

-Galen vs Vader (both fights)
-Krayt and Luke vs Abeloth
-Krayt vs Wyyrlok
-Dooku vs Kenobi (ROTS)
-Outlander vs Vaylin

...off the top of my head anyway, there's probably dozens of others.

@The Son of Hades How is Krayt vs. Wyyrlok controversial?

Revan v Vitiate
MFV v Kenobi
Kenobi v Dooku
Outlander v Vaylin
Galen v Vader
Krayt and Luke v Abeloth
Vader v Ben
ROTJ Luke v Vader
ESB Luke v Vader

Azronger wrote:Cade vs. Krayt, for some reason

Why is the idea that Cade can contend with Krayt totally baffling for you? I'm genuinely curious. I know you don't particularly care about intent (for others reading you should), but the thematics behind the comic can be argued to support Team Cade's position.

A vastly pre-prime iteration of Cade with just raw power and absolutely no Mastery is capable of contending with Vong Krayt as is noted by Krayt himself:

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4235907-sith%20cade%20vs%20darth%20krayt%20%282o3%29.jpg

The only thing that saves you thus far is the blood of Vader that runs through your veins.

-Darth Krayt

Then as I'm sure you're aware, Cade actually gains Mastery over that power, by the end of the series he's credited as having a "new mastery of the Force" and basically stomps Darth Talon who was consistently giving him decent fights prior. Now, in regards to thematics, I very much doubt that the writers would repeatedly emphasise Cade's lack of mastery and comment on how it's only his raw power which allows him to be able to engage Krayt, and then spend a whole series showing him gaining that Mastery only for him to be ragdolled by Krayt right at the end - performing even worse than he did in the first fight - making his efforts basically fruitless.* I know Krayt grew as well, but compared to Cade's growth it is given nowhere near as much emphasis, and if we want to draw IU comparisons Krayt goes from being considerably above Wyyrlok to failing to stomp him, whereas Cade goes from being considerably above Talon to stomping her (feel free to dispute the claim that Wyyrlok wasn't stomped by Krayt, but I honestly don't think it matters, Cade beat Talon far more decisively imo). The idea that Krayt grew more than Cade when Cade's growth is basically the most major focal point of the series is kinda silly tbh.

*To quickly elaborate on the starred point, even more, the fact that Cade contends with the far better trained, far more masterful, Vong Krayt who has "killed thousands of opponents" and is the reigning Dark Lord of the Sith shows a gargantuan gap in raw power, and Cade's Mastery has increased like tenfold meaning I definitely don't think it's unreasonable to assume Cade can contend with Reborn Krayt, even if the latter is massively more powerful than Vong Krayt. Anakin went from massively sub-Dooku (AOTC) to Yoda tier (ROTS) by gaining control over his raw power, clearing showing prodigies gaining Mastery over their power can cause ridiculous increases in combative capability.

Moreover, all of what I'm saying seems to be agreed upon in the final issue(s) of Legacy: War, with Darth Talon believing that Cade's New Mastery could potentially challenge Krayt in Legacy: War #5, and the opening crawl of the final issue re-emphasising such. So, Cade's growth is a major focal point of the series, and the final issue(s) of the comic emphasises it's potentially a threat to Reborn Krayt before he fights him, yet he apparently is like 2 tiers below Krayt??? That's some suspect insight.

Yeah, none of that is really believable tbh and seems to go against what the comic set out to portray - a vastly pre-prime Cade contends with Krayt, his growth is emphasised far moreso than Krayt's own, and the final issue of the comic posits the idea that Cade is now an actual challenge to Krayt.

Azronger wrote:@The Son of Hades How is Krayt vs. Wyyrlok controversial?

I've seen some people argue that Wyyrlok legitimately contended, and I've seen others argue that Krayt basically annihilated him. Idk, though, maybe it isn't as controversial as I think.

Yeah... that was a very contrived way of saying you are fully willing to ignore the evidence that has been posted countless times now.

Yeah, that was a very contrived way of not addressing my argument.

Caedus vs Juke and Inferno Luke are painfully misinterpreted a lot of the time. It's fairly blatant that Caedus was blitz fodder for Luke in Inferno, and Juke was comparable to that iteration of Luke, yet Caedus matches her in Invincible (Indicating growth). Kyle and Sing's fights with Jacen are more up to interpretation though, you can make a case either way.

All of Vader's OT fights

Dooku vs Yoda (both rounds)

Dooku Vs Obi Wan and Anakin S6 and ROTS

Maul and Savage vs Sidious 

Sidious vs Yoda

Revan vs Vitiate

Malgus vs Aryn Leneer

Isv wrote:Maul and Savage vs Sidious 

Sidious vs Yoda

How so for both?

I've heard that Sidious can't break Maul's guard and I hear from some users that Sheev can oneshot or easily dispatch Yoda

Isv wrote:I've heard that Sidious can't break Maul's guard and I hear from some users that Sheev can oneshot or easily dispatch Yoda

>cant break maul's guard
>easily dispatch yoda
>logically, maul > yoda.
>big brain time

revan vs vitiate 
anakin vs obi wan
krayt and luke vs abeloth 
maul and savage vs sidious
vader vs celeste morne and muur
sidious vs yoda 
galen vs vader (including starkiller fight)
dooku vs kenobi

The Son of Hades wrote:Yeah, that was a very contrived way of not addressing my argument.

You asked for it.

Why is the idea that Cade can contend with Krayt totally baffling for you? I'm genuinely curious.

This has been explained many, many times in threads which you have participated in. Instead of engaging with the arguments or the evidence you retreated to Discord to piss and moan. I'm not for a second going to suffer the delusion that you are "genuinely curious" when you've made a habit of hamster wheeling on this issue for months, regurgitating the same ridiculous word salad again and again.

I know you don't particularly care about intent (for others reading you should), but the thematics behind the comic can be argued to support Team Cade's position.

Coming from someone who apparently can't read the comic he is citing, this is dreadfully amusing.

A vastly pre-prime iteration of Cade with just raw power and absolutely no Mastery is capable of contending with Vong Krayt as is noted by Krayt himself:

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4235907-sith%20cade%20vs%20darth%20krayt%20%282o3%29.jpg

The only thing that saves you thus far is the blood of Vader that runs through your veins.

-Darth Krayt

https://imgur.com/a/paKz1

1. It's evident that Krayt passed up at least one opportunity to gut Cade. On the very first page depicting the fight, Krayt forces Cade to leap into the air like Superman just to avoid him, pushes him off balance with one lightsaber, and then in the final panel, keeping Cade's single saber locked to the side, Krayt puts away his second saber that was in his hand in the panel just prior and punches Cade in the face. On the very next page Cade himself points out that Krayt has no intention of actually killing him.

"Without me you will die -- and it won't be as Darth Krayt or even A'Sharad Hett. You'll die as some mindless Vong growth!" -Cade Skywalker

So even in this fight, Cade is being dominated by a severely weakened coral seed Krayt (the only weaker iteration than this being Vector), who had no intention of killing him. Moreover, "The only thing that saves you thus far" does not mean "You are totes legit contending with me, I'm in so much danger" or "You have so much more raw power than me" - it means Cade is just barely hanging on... more to the point though, this is clearly just the "I will complete your training as a Sith" shtick which Sidious did with Anakin and Luke - Krayt is using Dun Moch and trying to tilt Cade towards the dark side, which is the reason for him telling Cade to kill Nihl, and also for the following bit of dialogue:

"There is no possibility of escape. No hope of rescue. You are trapped within the citadel of your enemies. Your only hope of survival is to give into the raw anger that is your true legacy." -Darth Krayt

It's obvious given the prior dialogue that Krayt is talking about training Cade as a Sith:

"I completed training as both Jedi and Sith. I honed my skills in the Clone Wars and I've killed thousands of opponents since then. You are neither Jedi nor Sith -- just a mewling brat wallowing in righteous self-pity." -Darth Krayt

2. ...Cade had been retrained as both a Jedi and a Sith, had been through the Embrace of Pain, and had mastered Shatterpoint, which took him from being utterly baffled by how he could heal Krayt to not only knowing how to, but also being able to retool Dark Transfer as a killing weapon. He went from struggling with Nihl to domimating him. All of that is beside the point, other than to point out that you clearly haven't read the comic or are purposefully ignoring evidence when it suits your needs. Moreover, Krayt's comment does not say "Cade has zero mastery" - he's saying that the only thing keeping Cade alive is his natural Force strength, because as a Force user he is otherwise outclassed. Not to mention, Krayt did not want to kill Cade, which Cade points out - so Krayt was pulling potentially lethal punches.

So yeah, sorry, but misconstruing select pieces of dialogue to make it seem like this was a great fight, and trying to exaggerate the extent to which Cade's skills had atrophied when you know fine well they had become more advanced at this point, is a clear indicator of your ineptitude.

Then as I'm sure you're aware, Cade actually gains Mastery over that power, by the end of the series he's credited as having a "new mastery of the Force" and basically stomps Darth Talon who was consistently giving him decent fights prior.

Which nobody is denying...

Now, in regards to thematics, I very much doubt that the writers would repeatedly emphasise Cade's lack of mastery and comment on how it's only his raw power which allows him to be able to engage Krayt, and then spend a whole series showing him gaining that Mastery only for him to be ragdolled by Krayt right at the end - performing even worse than he did in the first fight - making his efforts basically fruitless.*

What you doubt has absolutely nothing to do with the evidence, which on your end is woefully lacking. To be clear, you're appealing to authorial intent that has been established absolutely nowhere. There is no evidence for the idea that Cade's growth was narratively intended to let him compete with a Reborn Krayt. But we will get to that.

I know Krayt grew as well, but compared to Cade's growth it is given nowhere near as much emphasis,

Sorry, but this is Kulvax tier bullshittery of the highest order. There are over a dozen sources stating in no uncertain terms that Krayt was dying, and immensely weakened, by the coral seeds. Lets post all of them so that any further protest on this point will reveal your dishonesty more clearly than ever.

“He began building a new Sith Order, but yorik coral implants drained much of his strength.”

—The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

“However, Darth Krayt is far older than anyone suspects, and he suffers from an insidious ailment that threatens to consume him. He's in dire need of powerful healing.”

—Legacy of the Force Preview 1

“Krayt seeks someone who can heal him of the Yuuzhan Vong infection which is slowly overtaking his body. But thus far his efforts to rid himself of the Vong parasites have failed.”

—Star Wars: Legacy #0.5

“My body fails me, Wyyrlok…”

“You’ve overextended yourself, my Lord. Perhaps a healing trance… or back into stasis…?”“

Perhaps a healing meditation, but I cannot go back into stasis. I am Emperor now and I must be seen -- and seen as strong.”

[...]

“How long have I fought this thing which threatens to take me over and make me not myself? How much longer can I keep it at bay. A decade or two perhaps… not more.”

—Darth Krayt and Darth Wyyrlok

“The effort to bring down Fel’s Empire, however, left him badly fatigued, and he was forced to reveal to his second-in-command, Darth Wyyrlok, that his Yuuzhan-Vong enhanced body was failing."

—The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
“The heretic comes for the same reason it came last time. Its body is failing. It fears that which is consuming it.

—Darth Andeddu

“Lord Bane, you mastered the parasites -- the orbalisks -- that attacked you… that fed on your body as these Yuuzhan Vong life forms feed on mine. How?”

—Darth Krayt

https://imgur.com/a/qxHzg

“No, it is for Lord Krayt that I fear. My Lord is dying. He is being consumed. Nothing in the Sith lore helps, including the ancient knowledge of XoXaan. The skills of the Jedi Healer, Hosk, have proven inadequate.”

—Darth Wyyrlok

"Darth Krayt and Darth Wyyrlok continued to delve into the ancient Sith lore, hoping to find a cure for his condition. However, not even the efforts of the Jedi healer Hosk Trey’lis could stop the steady deterioration of his body.”

—The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

“As Darth Krayt’s health grew steadily worse, Wyyrlok explored the lore of Xoxaan, looking for clues to help combat the Sith Lord’s failing condition. Wyyrlok also brought in the Jedi healer Hosk Trey’lis, but nothing helped.”

—The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

“An ancient Sith Lord noted for her skills as a healer.

[...]

"After establishing his new Sith Order, Darth Krayt and his chief lieutenant, Darth Wyyrlok, continued to delve into XoXaan’s teachings in an unsuccessful attempt to heal the slow deterioration of Darth Krayt’s body.”

—The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

“However, his body suffers the effects of having lived far beyond its natural lifespan. The Yuuzhan Vong implants used to extend his life begin to consume him. Furthermore, healing trances and Force healing become less effect. Darth Krayt knows that his time is limited unless a new solution is found.”

—Legacy Era Campaign Guide

“In the year 137 after the Battle of Yavin, Darth Krayt could no longer ignore the deterioration of his ancient body.”

[...]

“Krayt found his kingdom disintegrating along with his body.”

—Star Wars Insider #113

“Emperor Darth Krayt looks on, determined to turn the last Skywalker to the dark side, as Cade’s unique healing abilities are the only cure for the Yuuzhan Vong affliction that ravages Krayt’s body.”

—Star Wars: Legacy #19

“The growths caused by the coral seeds the Vong implanted in me continue to grow. They threaten to consume me. In order to realize my vision… I need healing.”

“I can’t. When I heal, it’s like I’m seeing inside someone. I see these red lines. They guide me. In you -- there are too many -- and they’re all jumbled together. I can’t see how to separate them… yet.”

—Darth Krayt and Cade Skywalker

“Enough about me. Let’s talk about you. You and my Dad opened my eyes to my abilities. I see real clear now. I can see how sick and twisted up your insides are. I can see what fighting me is costing you. Those Vong… things in your innards. Nasty little critters want to take you over real bad. What do they feel like, huh? Something gnawing your guts? Clawing at you? Tell me - do the other Sith know how sick you really are? How weak? What would they do if they knew?”

—Cade Skywalker

“Cade’s escape has left the Emperor weakened, and his regime shaken.

Darth Wyyrlok, seeing the deterioration of his Master, has decided to seek another way to heal the Emperor...”

—Star Wars: Legacy #27

“Lord Krayt!”

“Get me to the stasis chamber. The battle with Skywalker has cost me.”

—Darth Krayt and Darth Wyyrlok

“Wyyrlok knows how these biots threaten to take over his Master’s body and leave him a mindless shell. He probed deep into his collection of ancient books of Sith Lore, seeking an answer to Krayt’s affliction in the wisdom of the past.”

—Star Wars: Legacy #27

“My time is running out, Lord Wyyrlok. I can feel it. My… control of the coral seeds the Yuuzhan Vong planted within me wanes. Soon I will be a mindless thing. Or a corpse.”

—Darth Krayt

“Together we will dominate the galaxy as you have not been able to do alone in that infected and failing husk you call a body.”

[...]

“Ye-es, yes. I sense the alien seeds within you, seeking to expand their domain, to consume your flesh. Together we must focus.”

—Karness Muur

It was one of, if not the, most central plot points in the entire series. This is why it is important to call into question either your reading comprehension or your honesty. And again, the idea that Talon, one IU source and a few writer comments saying Cade gained mastery and focus put "far more emphasis" on his growth than literally twice that many sources stating in even more dramatic terms the extent to which Krayt's Force power, Force mastery and control over his body literally mutliplied, is completely fucking retarded and should be punishable by water boarding. So to make it abundantly clear, lets now post all of those quotes which everyone already knows about but you continue to turn a blind eye to, for some reason:

“What no one knows is that Darth Krayt is returning better than before. . .”

—Star Wars: Legacy—War #1

“I have been through death and conquered it. I have returned with my power multiplied. The Dark Side of the Force lives and manifests itself through me!”

—Darth Krayt

“I have become so much more than you can know, traitor.”

—Darth Krayt

“Death is not an ending, boy -- but it is a passageway to something greater.”

—Darth Krayt

“You fled our last fight -- and I am so much more now than I was then.”

—Darth Krayt

“The re-designing of Darth Krayt has been an interesting challenge both story wise and visually. I went through a bunch of different looks for him, but the one that appealed to me the most was a Krayt who was Yuuzhan Vong parasite free and again in control of his own body—Darth Krayt as a Sith—now at the peak of his power and willing to set the Galaxy to rights as the Force guides him.”

—Jan Duursema

“‘Legacy—War’ will fill readers in on what really happened to Krayt at the end of ‘Vector.’ I’d say that Krayt understands his power better than he ever has before and he is intent on exacting revenge for Wyyrlok’s transgressions.”

—Jan Duursema

"Darth Krayt has returned from the "dead," stronger, more evil, and more determined than ever to crush the galaxy under his heel."

—Star Wars: Legacy—War #1 Solicitation

"It's an all-out war as the Sith emperor returns from the dead-stronger, more evil, more determined, and prepared to unleash a new secret weapon upon the galaxy!"

—Star Wars: Legacy Volume 11 -- War TPB Solicitation

https://imgur.com/a/ISGND

and if we want to draw IU comparisons Krayt goes from being considerably above Wyyrlok to failing to stomp him,

We have one quote saying Krayt's skills with TK and lightning are far above Wyyrloks, but in terms of how that manifests in a fight, we had no gauge to go by until they fought. Moreover, Wyyrlok's knowledge of the dark side is "unparalleled" and at best "rivalled" by Krayt, so it's not as if every source paints Krayt as capable of "stomping" Wyyrlok, which from what I can tell you define as being something between an extremely easy victory to a ragdoll?

“Calm, philosophical, and skilled in diplomacy, Wyyrlok is the voice of reason within—and the public face of—the Sith order. His knowledge of the rituals and lore of the Sith is unparalleled, and his dark side abilities are surpassed only by Krayt.”

—Star Wars Insider #88

"A Chagrian SIth Lord and Darth Krayt’s second in command during the rise of Krayt’s new Sith Order. Wyyrlok's knowledge of Sith lore, rituals, and history was rivalled only by that of Krayt himself."

—The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Regardless of the semantics, there's two further problems with your shitty comparison:

1. Krayt's "skills" can be evaluated independent of his physical condition. The coral seeds were sapping his strength, not his skills. So if Krayt's skills far outstrip Wyyrlok's, that does not also mean that he would stomp him in a fight, even if he wasn't in a dire physical condition, which he was.

2. Wyyrlok clearly underwent two profound moments of power growth; once after killing Andeddu and the second after killing his master. That could also account for why he didn't lose as badly as we might expect. But even then, Wyyrloks attacks were dismissed easily and he was as good as beaten in a duel after one page. Krayt tanked one of the most potent telepathic attacks ever conjured by someone who is a savant in the art and had intimate knowledge of what were once Krayt's weaknesses. Memory Walk (sources below) forces the victim to relive their most painful, horrific memories in an endless loop, with no shred of hope or optimism left, but instead an exaggerated version - in this case Krayt relived the death of his father, Order 66, where he felt the death of every Jedi in quick succession in the Force, his torture by the Vong which was described as an "endless state of pain", not to mention the grotesque descriptions of torture given by the book where Jacen is tortured by them, probably his fight with Abeloth (which hadn't been published yet hence why it's not in the comic)... and again, sources given below for how much worse these relivings are than the real thing due to the exaggerated properties of Memory Walk.

https://imgur.com/a/AP04o

...and yet all it does is allow Krayt to lure Wyyrlok into letting his guard down, gutting him. Its clear Wyyrlok's chances were hopeless considering that was the most powerful, underhanded attack he could have possibly utilised (consider the damaged Darish Vol did to Abeloth's vulnerable psychic wounds), and yet funnily enough, unlike with Cade, Krayt was actually pissed off and trying to kill Wyyrlok right out of the gate. So no, this shit tier attempt at an argument does not at all suggest that Cade's growth outstripped Krayt's - all you have done is draw more attention to the disparity between Cade and Krayt by giving us an example of a time Krayt wasn't holding back. Wyyrlok is clearly superior to Cade and even then, he was hanging on by a thread against Krayt when he was serious about killing him.

But since we're using "IU comparisons", lets look at one that isn't completely ridiculous.

Saarai is the Wyyrlok in training, her power is "nascent" compared to her father Darth Wyyrlok. She for all intents and purposes ragdolls Darth Stryfe, one of Krayt's underlings who if Maladi and Nihl are anything to go by he ragdolls with contempt without protest. Darth Stryfe being the same guy who telekinetically stonewalled Cade during Vector, a fair bit of time after the Claws duel. Sources below...

https://imgur.com/a/ATuel
https://imgur.com/a/1FhJf

So... if Vong Krayt > Wyyrlok > Saarai > Stryfe ~ Cade... what makes you think Cade is even remotely as powerful as Krayt, especially Reborn Krayt who is multiple times more powerful than Vong Krayt? And again, the fact Krayt dominated Wyyrlok at the peak of his powers so thoroughly really strains your idea that Cade's growth > Krayt's to the point of utter incredulity. What, you're telling me that Cade went from being under fucking Saarai to above Wyyrlok and able to contend with Reborn Krayt? And this is based on what, your assumptions and fuzzy feelings? We already saw the fight - Cade was dominated by a disinterested and assured Krayt who easily subdued him, as he had foreseen well in advance.

whereas Cade goes from being considerably above Talon to stomping her (feel free to dispute the claim that Wyyrlok wasn't stomped by Krayt, but I honestly don't think it matters, Cade beat Talon far more decisively imo).

Nobody doubts that Cade dominated Talon more thoroughly than ever before, the issue is that your Wyyrlok comparison was brain damage inducing at best.

The idea that Krayt grew more than Cade when Cade's growth is basically the most major focal point of the series is kinda silly tbh.

How is Cade's growth "the most major focal point of the series" lmfao, what comic were you reading? The fate of the story hinged on him and Krayt equally and there are far more quotes pointing out how important Krayt's resurrection and subsequent growth were, and of those quotes Krayt's are much more emphatically put. The only way to reach your conclusion is to be content to ignore direct evidence. And believe me, as someone who has read the series back to front and front to back several times looking for novel ways to wank Cade, I'm in a hell of a better position than you are to understand the narrative cues and themes which you are failing horribly to represent coherently or accurately.

*To quickly elaborate on the starred point, even more, the fact that Cade contends with the far better trained, far more masterful, Vong Krayt who has "killed thousands of opponents" and is the reigning Dark Lord of the Sith shows a gargantuan gap in raw power, and Cade's Mastery has increased like tenfold meaning I definitely don't think it's unreasonable to assume Cade can contend with Reborn Krayt, even if the latter is massively more powerful than Vong Krayt.

Thanks for confirming you are content to make assumptions instead of looking at the evidence. This means that your input on the topic is henceforth beneath contempt. You've repeatedly ignored the multitude of arguments explaining how badly weakened Krayt was in Claws of the Dragon, not to mention that he couldn't seriously harm or kill Cade because he needed his healing power. Cade obviously has more natural power than Krayt, but he never even slightly approached him in terms of mastery even by the end of the series. Moreover, if your theory is that Cade should have done better in the second fight, then a simple test can prove or falsify this theory. If Cade really did better, that would have been shown in the fight. You wouldn't have to hamster wheel around evidence and tell me why you "think" and "assume" Cade did better second time around based on a plethora of bullshit and half-baked shenaniganry you came up with after scratching your butt for 20 minutes.

Anakin went from massively sub-Dooku (AOTC) to Yoda tier (ROTS) by gaining control over his raw power, clearing showing prodigies gaining Mastery over their power can cause ridiculous increases in combative capability.

1. Anakin has the dormant power of the fucking Father. He's obviously a terrible person to use as a benchmark for power growth.
2. Anakin spent three years in the Clone Wars and was a knight before that, Cade (starting out with padawan-level training and a death stick addiction) spent a little over a year gallavanting and only really ramped up his fighting against the Sith in the most latter part of that year (maybe a month or two?)
3. Cade is not Anakin... nor Luke... nor Starkiller. All of these characters have extremely prodigious raw power but their respective growths are not at all similar or linear.

So this is just more of your appeals to non existent authorial intent in the face of overwhelming evidence. What a surprise.

Moreover, all of what I'm saying seems to be agreed upon in the final issue(s) of Legacy: War, with Darth Talon believing that Cade's New Mastery could potentially challenge Krayt in Legacy: War #5, and the opening crawl of the final issue re-emphasising such.

And yet... he didn't even slightly phase a disinterested Krayt who maintained a nonchalant demeanour throughout and who opted to defeat Cade in the most specific and awkward manner possible - reaching through his lightsaber guard and placing a palm on his chest. Same deal as the first fight - he keeps Cade's saber at bay and instead of driving his second saber through his gut, which he easily could have done, he opted to do some awkward martial arts shit. He was completely dominant throughout while holding back and entirely assured of his victory.



So just because Talon was worried, it does not mean her worries were well placed...

Since you seem to rate narrative intent so much, lets go over all of the narrative cues surrounding Krayt you either missed or ignored.






Krayt states repeatedly that everything that is happening has been foreseen well in advance (due to the fact he has now mastered Shatterpoint, and was already a Foresight savant) - his strategy to destroy the Republic and Imperial Fleets, the Jedi on Taivas, as well as Cade making his way to Krayt himself, and Cade dying. He then shoves that same vision into Cade's head - of a Coruscant ruined by Maladi's virus that Roan Fel was seconds away from launching, and Cade falling to the dark side.

The point is, Krayt was right about nearly everything he said, i.e "Surrender. You fled our last fight, and I am so much more now than I was then." He was simply wrong about Cade - Cade chose to be a Jedi in the end. He was also wrong about the Imperial Knights being willing to use their enemies weapons against them - Antares Draco stopped Roan from pulling the trigger.

So, Cade's growth is a major focal point of the series, and the final issue(s) of the comic emphasises it's potentially a threat to Reborn Krayt before he fights him, yet he apparently is like 2 tiers below Krayt??? That's some suspect insight.

I'm not sure which is worse: your arguments or your attempts at wit. Either way, this level of argumentation and dishonesty is truly beneath contempt. You have shown yourself ready and willing to ignore any evidence that doesn't suit your bias and agenda.

Yeah, none of that is really believable tbh and seems to go against what the comic set out to portray - a vastly pre-prime Cade contends with Krayt, his growth is emphasised far moreso than Krayt's own, and the final issue of the comic posits the idea that Cade is now an actual challenge to Krayt.

But, sure, it's totally baffling that people think Cade can contend with Krayt, silly them, Krayt obviously ragdolls.

What you find believable and what the evidence tells us appears to be mutually exclusive. Sorry, but again, your post is beneath contempt, and at best serves as a good opportunity to debunk the putrid horseshit you and a select few others seem to keep insisting despite it being proven wrong repeatedly in threads you have read and participated in.

If you are unwilling to even acknowledge evidence when it has been available to you for years, and has been shown to you repeatedly, can you truly be considered a debater? My answer is no: this is basically just moderator sanctioned shitposting mixed with some lack of awareness dressed up in a heaping serving of textual diarrhea.

Sources for Memory Walk I mentioned earlier, which I'm gonna copy and paste from the Wyyrlok/Vol thread:

Wyyrlok’s other power of note is Memory Walk. Memory Walk is described as an ability that compels the enemy to relive their most horrible memories and experiences - tragedy, humiliation, shame, fear. 



We see him successfully use this against Darth Krayt, bringing all of his worst experiences to the forefront of his mind in quick succession.
https://imgur.com/a/AP04o

However, as shown with Darth Maladi and Cade Skywalker, it is not just explicit memories that can be brought to the forefront of the mind. It is underlying fears and insecurities - what ifs - that can be capitalised on, as Maladi shows Cade an illusion of himself as a Sith Lord killing his loved ones, and Cade himself casts an illusion of Maladi losing control of her surroundings, being surrounded by Vong snakes and dominated by Cade himself.
https://imgur.com/a/G20LQ

Moreover, it is possible to amplify the worst fears and insecurities of an enemy through the use of Force Illusions. We saw this already with Wyyrlok making Andeddu believe that his books and scrolls were being drowned in lava, even though the room they were in remained unaffected. This ability to amplify the effects of Memory Walk is described in gruesome detail below when a Sorcerer of Tund named Gepta tortures members of his crew and Lando Calrissian.

The sorcerer made a gesture with his gloved fist. The officer groaned, sweat sprang out on his forehead, and he sank to his knees.

"You see how much more effective it is than mere pain, don't you?

Everyone has memories, little items from their past best left buried: humiliations, embarrassments, mistakes... sometimes fatal ones. All the ways we have failed those we have loved, the ways they have failed us!"

Gepta made another gesture.

"No, you can think of nothing else! The ignobility races round and round your mind, amplified, feeding on itself!"

The officer's face went gray, he swayed on his knees, his back bowed, his clenched fists began dripping blood where the fingernails cut into the palms. A little froth appeared at one corner of his mouth, followed by more blood as he gnashed at his lips and tongue. Finally, he lost all control, collapsed in a heap and lay there, twitching, moaning.

Gepta released him.

A pair of orderlies appeared, dragged the broken man from the bridge.
--Lando Calrissian and the Flamewind of Oseon

As shown, suffering Memory Walk forces the enemy to experience an endless loop of their worst experiences which becomes amplified as it feeds on itself. This is described as a greater method of torture than even physical pain.

But it gets worse. Through the use of Memory Walk, one can actually amplify the memories themselves to be far worse than when they were experienced: you make seconds feel like hours and you can exaggerate the fear the enemy experienced at the time.

The fire hose caught him unprepared. It dashed him against the wall, the icy water sluicing over him, blinding him, forcing itself into his mouth and nose. He fell to his knees, his head battered against the wall. He ducked it, trying to breathe, trying to stay alive against the killing force of "But, you protest, it wasn't like that at all?"

Gepta paced back and forth in front of Lando, relishing the gambler's agony. Despite the sweat on every centimeter of his skin, Lando was freezing, simply from the memory.

But Gepta was right: it hadn't been like that at all.

"It-it only lasted a few moments," Lando stunered. Perhaps it was a surrender of some kind; he hated to give the madman any satisfaction at all. But he had to understand what was happening here.

"I wasn't nearly that frightened. I'd already worked out a way to escape. And it only lasted a few seconds-not the hours I just..."

He tapered off, unable to continue because of his shaking. Shaking merely at the remembrance of something that hadn't bothered him all that much when it was actually happening.
--Lando Calrissian and the Flamewind of Oseon

But it gets even worse. It’s possible to make the enemy experience fear which they were able to avoid at the time through their own psychological defences. Our ability to be brave, press on and ignore our fears is taken away during Memory Walk - all that is left is the fear itself with no way to avoid it. Even worse, the knowledge that the enemy survived their traumatic experience, that they somehow succeeded in the end, is taken from them. The only thing they are left with is the fear itself, with no hope left to cling to.

"You're a brave man, Captain Cahissian. You don't like to think of it that way. What do you call it, 'creative cowardice'?

You regard yourself a pragmatist, one not given to heroics."

The sorcerer had paused, stood now nearly motionless before the gambler. In the background, the Flamewind whorled around the demented sky, casting many-colored shadows.

Lando shook his head to get the sweat out of his eyes, tried his bonds. As he'd expected, they were there to stay.

"And yet," Gepta continued, "what is bravery but the capacity to reject our fears, ignore and suppress them, then go on to do whatever it is we are afraid to do. What you are experiencing now, dear Captain, is the fear You refused to experience the first time. Now you have no choice!"

Surprise attack!

Wrestling the Falcon with one hand, Lando desperately tried to fire the cockpit guns with the other as the weird ragtaggle fighter-squadron bore down on him. It was a nightmare: they were too well shielded for his inconsequential guns to trouble, yet he couldn't operate the quad-guns without leaving the bridge.

Vuffi Raa, insane and helpless, couldn't assist him.

He fired again. He might as well have been shooting strewns of pink lemonade as the pale, ineffectual fire that was all he could manage. The enemy fleet bore down on him, bore down, bore down...

Lando finished throwing up, coughed, choked, cleared his throat.

"Obviously," Gepta hissed cheerfully, "you survived the peril that you just reexperienced. Otherwise, you wouldn't be here now-it's only logical. It is a logic which enables us to live with our unpleasant memories, is it not? An integrative, healing contextualization which we all require to survive."

"Sure," the gambler gasped. "Sure, you rotten-anything you say!"

"Ah! Resistance at last! As I was saying, however, the art of torture-by-chagrin lies in denying the mind that integration, that perspective. As you relive the horrors of your life, you don't recall that you survived, eventually triumphed. You see, even at moments of extreme peril, there are defenses, distractions, digressions which dilute the passions..What is more, my method does not allow its subject to experience anything but the fear. You can think of nothing else. The experience goes on and on, in circles, until the ego and the will are utterly crushed.
--Lando Calrissian and the Flamewind of Oseon

...so yeah, if Wyyrlok can't even phase Krayt with an attack on that level I have no idea where AA3 got the idea that Wyyrlok had a snowball's chance in hell of winning. He was completely dominated, and Cade even more so by a much more relaxed Krayt.

Revan vs Vitiate.
Mace vs Sidious (still somewhat contradictory among non-debaters).
Obi-Wan vs Anakin.
Dooku vs Anakin.
Luke vs Vader.

ILS and I have similar methodologies so of course I enjoyed reading that. The only thing is, I am more than one-hundred percent sure HP will respond with some cancerous "debunk" and this will be an ongoing debate, if you two would'nt mind, put it to a CaV eh? Vong Krayt vs Cade Skywalker

Yeah, that was a very contrived way of addressing his argument.

On topic:

Luke vs VIUN GAALAN

Let's summon HP:

Vader vs Starkiller.
Vader vs Galen Marek.

Don't do that BoD. Let those be, Vader is already too far ahead of Starkiller at this point don't try and summon TFU arguments, especially with Syn having been awakened

Isv wrote:Don't do that BoD. Let those be, Vader is already too far ahead of Starkiller at this point don't try and summon TFU arguments, especially with Syn having been awakened

pin this to a wall isv