SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:My post is pretty much complete so it should be on time. I'm gonna spend the next week or so fine tuning it though.

I look forward to it.

My post should be coming within the next few hours or so, if not it'll be tomorrow. I hope y'all enjoy it.

Kewl.

Its coming I can feel it

I can't. Probably will be done tomorrow ngl at the rate DC is going.

Try to remain optimistic. I'm always negative so don't listen to me tbh.

Table of contents:

1.Is Superior Power Necessary?
2.Specific Abilities
3.Force Power
4.Combative Capability
5.Conclusion
6.Sources

1) Is Superior Power Necessary?

Allow me to begin by articulating what I believe to be SA’s biggest mistake throughout this entire debate. The mistake in question is a costly one, and leaves no room for doubt regarding the victor of this particular match up. From the moment we began, SA seems to have reached the conclusion that Kyp’s supposedly superior power is all that is required to give him the edge. It’s not.

Based off the arguments provided why don’t we examine the potential scenarios that grant Kyp victory:

>Kyp overpowers Jacen via vast superior power in the force, cracking open his defences with telekinesis.

Versus the scenarios that grant Jacen victory:

>Jacen outlasts Kyp due to his vastly superior pain threshold.

>Jacen tricks Kyp with illusions long enough to land a devastating blow that ends the match there and then.

>Jacen defeats Kyp as a result of his superior bladework.

This should paint a fairly clear picture of how likely Jacen’s victory is relative to Kyp’s. Now, to articulate how utterly irrelevant Kyp’s supposed power edge is, we have a variety of examples throughout the mythos that substantiate the notion that breaking through the force barrier of a resisting individual is not only difficult, but near impossible. One such example would be during the events of Shadow Conspiracy, wherein Maul squares off against Sidious in an incredibly one sided affair during which Sidious’s “superiority never wavered” and his blows eventually became “to many to count”. To add to this we have scaling which puts Maul far below Sheev:

A) During the events of Son Of Dathomir Sidious and Talzin engage in a force clash in which they prove to be roughly evenly matched, however when Maul gives his strength to Talzin, and Dooku gives his to Sheev, things take a rather drastic shift in favour of his Imperial Majesty, who gains the advantage rather quickly . This is despite Dooku being substantially weakened beforehand (1).

B) Dooku, while well above Maul as indicated above gets absolutely thrashed by Anakin at the beginning of ROTS, with the text describing him as a “joke” in comparison, and the film showing the engagement lasting a total of 12 seconds before The Count’s demise (2).

C) In spite of this Anakin was still an 8 to Yoda’s 9 on the tiering system (3), which is stated to be a “huge leap”, pointing to a large disparity between Yoda and Skywalker.

D) Sheev is capable of overpowering Yoda as seen in ROTS and substantiated by supplementary material (4).

Sheev>>Yoda>>Anakin>>>>Dooku>>Weakened Dooku>>Maul.

Despite the substantial gap between the two Sheev has to “search relentlessly” for a crack in Maul’s defences and when he finds one he “pounces” on it while “snarling”. The implications here are obvious, Sheev cannot conventionally breach Maul’s guard with the force, requiring an opening to bypass his defences. To create such an opening against Jacen, Durron will require superior bladework or mastery in the force, neither of which he’s in possession of. With all of this to consider, allow me to pose a simple question: Do you think the power gap between Jacen and Durron is bigger than the gap between Sidious and Maul? I personally don’t see any reason why it should be. With that out of the way, let’s get on to addressing your arguments.

2) Specific Abilities

The nature of the injuries are different, yes, but the way the Force user handle that pain is not "fundamentally different." The difference between your leg being broken in 3 places and one of your kidneys being stabbed through is not significant. Both will equally affect your ability to stand on your feet and fight. Because lightsabers cauterize their own wounds, the main impact of a lightsaber stab is organ damage. And might I draw your attention back to part of Kyp's feat as quoted earlier (emphasis mine):

Crushing your rib cage will most certainly affect the organs underneath. Regardless, the feats are not all that different and demonstrate similar levels of pain tolerance.

They’re "fundamentally different" because Jacen’s injury was explicitly noted to require force energy to survive after, in stark contrast to having your bones broken, something even normal humans can recover from.

All right. So how much did Caedus grow? Is that quantifiable in any way? You say that Kyp is "substantially less powerful" than Luke. Prove it. You say that prime Jacen should have "no issue" fooling Luke. Prove it. You've made quite a few completely unsubstantiated claims in this paragraph. Prove them. Prime Jacen has never tried to fool anyone near Kyp's ballpark with an illusion. You have nothing to support these claims. Come back when you do.

There’s a great deal of textual evidence throughout the LOTF that indicates Jacen grew substantially. For one Bloodlines explicitly emphasises that Jacen’s power in the force was increasing daily. Moreover, a concept that’s given a great deal of spotlight throughout LOTF is that Jacen gains his power through sacrifice, with Lumiya noting that it’s a “necessary component” of Sith power and that it leaves Jacen "strengthened". After killing Mara the text states that the force "shifted" , with sources even detailing how Jacen’s power “swells” after the act. The aforementioned quotes point to a clear massive increase in power. When we consider that Jacen could fool Luke for an extended duration of time while multi-tasking fairly early on in LOTF it becomes apparent that he’d be capable of deceiving Luke without effort at his peak. This isn’t a complicated premise, it’s a basic argument supported by logic. We’ve seen firsthand that this ability is combat applicable under highly unfavourable circumstances. Given the stipulations of this fight and Jacen’s own performances it’s obvious to anyone with a set of eyes what Jacen can do to Kyp with illusions, leaving the outcome of this match a near certainty.

3) Force Power

Despite your attempt at a "gotcha!" moment, these statements do not contradict each other. I have remained perfectly consistent. In my first post, I was legitimizing character quotes in general. I see a lot of debaters toss aside any character quotes without second thought whenever it is convenient. In my second post, I was discussing when we can ignore character quotes. I believe I made that condition quite clear in the original post: "when there is clear evidence to the contrary." In terms of Kyp's supremacy over mid-Vong War Luke, we have additional information that corroborates Kyp's assessment. My argument against Caedus' quotes always has been, and will remain, that the mountain of evidence we have indicating Kyp's superiority outweighs those quotes for Caedus. And, since they are not OOU statements, they are not binding. That is my argument. Not that we use character quotes only when it suits me. I'm still incorporating all the important factors as mentioned before

I never claimed the two statements themselves were inherently contradictory, I was merely pointing out that you’ve decided to "toss aside" the quotes proclaiming Jacen to be superior to Durron without first examining the "holistic intent" of the statements in question, something you deemed to be necessary when interpreting such accolades, and in itself is fairly clear cut. I very much doubt the writers of LOTF sat down, created these narrative plot points and said to each other “This is all bullshit to serve the story, and is actually wrong”. Your only grounds for dismissal is "contradictory evidence”, that, as I’ll soon explain, doesn’t stand up to scrutiny in the slightest. My only remaining question is: Do you think the judges will favour Kyp’s assessment and a comparison of power that by its very nature can be interpreted in numerous ways over Luke, Jacen, Leia and the clear narrative intent of LOTF? Mull over that for a while.

Let me propose a third scenario:

>Luke states Jacen is above everyone barring himself and not one person contradicts him because they still don't know how powerful Jacen really is and Luke is the only one they can be sure would defeat him. They send Jaina because of her connection to her twin brother.

This scenario is not only implausible, but outright impossible. Several of the members present are intimately familiar with Jacen’s power level and skill set, and beyond that have actually engaged him head to head. I don’t know how you reached the conclusion the council don’t have the necessary data to correctly assess Jacen’s capabilities but I want to make one thing clear: It is flat out wrong.

My "extremely sketchy scaling" has yet to be countered at all and it places Kyp vastly beyond Jacen. Thus, we have that "evidence to the contrary" necessary to overrule character quotes.

As they say, patience is a virtue.

Not only that, but Kyp comes out on top of every single feat comparison we can come up with, which I will get to later. That's two out of three comparisons which Kyp takes home. Sufficient evidence.

Kyp’s "feats advantage" is utterly worthless when we have "clear evidence to the contrary” such as the assessment of the characters within the story itself. You’ve yet to establish any kind of cap on Jacen’s abilities and until you do so I’ll be taking the opinions of people familiar with the respective capabilities of the characters over your mini RT.

Oh finally, you've addressed the main crux of my argument. Except, you didn't say anything that I didn't counter preemptively in my opener.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8QLKWvVK14&feature=yout.ube&t=3m11s

Allow me to elaborate. As you yourself have agreed, Kyp handled more power than Luke, and he handled that power more effectively. Even if Luke could have brought more power to bear for his Dovin Basal feat, it doesn't matter: Kyp handled the physical toll of using that amount of power far better. This is why how they handled the affects of the power is important. If Kyp used more power, and it took less of a physical toll on his body, why wouldn't that indicate superiority? It means he can channel more power in a fight than Luke can. It means his actualized power is higher because again, the power he can actively channel at once is higher. My scaling stands.

I feel like you’ve fundamentally missed the point of my argument here. Yes, Kyp brought more power to bear than Luke, and yes he was less exhausted after performing the feat, however, contrary to what you seem to imply this doesn’t necessitate that Kyp be stronger than Luke. Consider the following: If Luke is barely tapping into the deep reserves of his power (Like always), and is only using the bare minimum of what he has at his disposal, naturally he’s going to be exhausted, given he hasn’t brought sufficient telekinetic output necessary to perform the feat without strain, and barely has anything leftover after the performance. Kyp however brings everything he can and is obviously left with a significant portion of his reserves left. This conclusion fits more with what we know about the way TK comparisons function within the lore, and is more substantiated in the text being discussed than your groundless fan theory about Kyp and Luke bringing similar amounts of power, but one taking on more of a toll on the body.

Oh, and I'd love for you to try and prove that Kyp "lacks the force of will" to use much of his raw power. Go ahead, try.

Given Kyp himself appears to agree with me I doubt it’ll be much of an issue (5).

4) Combative Capability

The phrasing in this quote is key. "He might have been a match for an expert swordsmaster such as Kyp or Kyle Katarn." Luke is estimating that Gaalan might have been a match for an "expert swordsmaster." He then lists Kyp and Kyle as examples of expert swordsmasters.

The uncertainty of Gaalan’s parity with either of the masters is not of consequence and does nothing to affect the actual comparison. For example if someone were to say:

Andy Murray was an excellent tennis player. He might have been as good as Roger Federer or Novak Djokovic, both of whom were equally skilled.

Whether Andy is actually as good as Roger or Novak doesn’t affect how good Roger or Novak are relative to each other. Similarly Gaalan not being as good as either doesn’t change the fact that both Kyp and Kyle are in a similar ballpark, hence why Gaalan’s rough level would be on par with either of  them.

The language is in this quote is not nearly as binding you're making it out to be. Not only is there a massive qualifier sitting right in the middle of it, but it doesn't even require Kyp and Kyle to be on the same level as duelists for the quote to make sense. Luke is making a rough estimation of Gaalan's skill mid-fight and he's throwing out names that Gaalan might be skilled enough to match. Nothing more.

What qualifies Katarn or Durron to be as good as Gaalan doesn’t matter, the point is that either of them are, which leaves them both on a similar level. I very much doubt Luke is listing two people light years apart from each other as examples of Jedi Gaalan could match, that wouldn’t make any sense given the context.

5) Conclusion

Your scaling chain fails on more than one level as demonstrated in this post. Not only is Kyp inferior to NJO Luke but even if he wasn’t, per his own admission he can’t apply that power under regular circumstances. To add to this, even if your chain did function it wouldn’t serve as sufficient evidence Kyp can TK body Jacen, which is a requirement for his victory here, given he has no counter to illusions and is a vastly inferior swordsman that lacks Jacen’s pain threshold. Your (Faulty) scaling aside, the implications are that Jacen is more powerful than Durron, as stated thrice in the mythos by objective characters, who we have no reason to believe are wrong in their assessment. So, judges, here’s my question for you:

Jacen:

>The superior swordsman with higher pain tolerance, numerous win conditions and greater applicable power.

Or Durron:

>Jacen’s potential better in raw power, which he can’t access combatively, who has a wonky scaling chain that fails on multiple levels to his name.

You choose.

6) Sources

Spoiler:

Also @Praxis gets the W for believing in me. @NotAA3 takes another L.

IT'S HERE.

Decent post.

Spoiler:

While there are bad elements in this post it's solid on the whole

MP has me dying lmfao. Gotta love the wit.

Good post

Good post, certainly a worthy response

I'll get my finisher up this weekend, and then once yours is in, we can wrap this thing up.

KK. Be quick please, after we both went massively over the time limit multiple times we should try to wrap this up quick so the tourney can progress.

@PeraltaEagle45 Will you get your finisher up soon?

Yes, so sorry. New college semester has been ramping up over the last week and a half.

@PeraltaEagle45 I'll give you an extension if you don't post on time but given how long we've dragged this out I'd prefer if I didn't have to.

Nice post... Good to see defense of Caedus’ Power while we’re getting the “Darth Caedus vs. Aayla Secura” bullshit.

Cheers bruv.

I've written out my post but just need to work to get it under the character limit. I might have time tomorrow. Ping me here if I don't post by tomorrow night. Sorry to keep dragging this on so much.

I apologize for the long delay once again. Thankfully this is my last post for this debate. You've been an excellent, if unconvincing, sport. Unique character count (not including this intro or the header): 2,481/2,500

Finisher:


You have failed to punch any holes in my scaling chain or other arguments for Kyp. You claim that Kyp admits he no longer has the willpower to perform his monumental feats. Not only does he confirm that he has the power to replicate it, and far more skill, but his reasoning is simple: he can’t do it unless he knows he’s right. He is referring to that specific event, and why he couldn’t do that exact thing on a whim. We can safely assume that for this hypothetical fight, he knows he is serving the greater good.

Your attempt to break my scaling chain likewise reeks of ignorance. Your claim that Luke was more exhausted than Kyp because he didn’t draw on enough power (besides making zero logical sense) has no textual evidence to support it. On the contrary, the idea that Force-users are physically drained and/or damaged after channeling large amounts of power is a long-established trait in the Star Wars universe.  Nox’s added power was destroying his body until he increased his midichlorian count. Ragnos disintegrated Axmis when he tried to channel his power through her. The more powerful someone is, the more capable their body is of handling power. Simply put: your theory is asinine and completely baseless.

Lastly, let’s clean up a few loose ends from the debate:

-You claim Jacen could win due to a “superior pain threshold.” Kyp used the Force to survive his arms, legs, and ribcage being crushed. Sure, Caedus’ injury was the worse of the two.

-You claim Jacen could win through his illusions. Let’s not forget that it required all of Jacen’s strength to fool Luke with an illusion. Pre-prime, sure, but nothing suggests he grew enough to close that gap significantly. You failed to prove that Jacen grew so vastly that he went from needing all his strength and focus to fool someone of Kyp’s caliber to doing so with ease mid-combat.

-You claim Jacen could win by “superior bladework” without providing any evidence to suggest it exists. Your example quote said, “both players were equally skilled,” a phrase not found in any form in the Kyp and Kyle quote. You have nothing suggesting Jacen is a better duelist.

-Lastly, to address Caedus’ character quotes: authorial intent can only go so far. It is useful when discerning between 2 equally viable interpretations. It cannot be used to overrule clear-cut chasms of power. Kyp has demonstrated power several orders of magnitude beyond Caedus. Not only that, he has an objective feat comparison that favors him over mid-Vong War Luke. Unfortunately for Caedus, he has no OOU source that would directly override this. As such, he has nothing.

In conclusion: Kyp is inarguably far more powerful than Caedus. Caedus has nothing proving himself a better duelist, having a higher pain tolerance, or being a powerful enough illusionist for it to be a factor. All Caedus has to cling to are his few character quotes, which simply aren’t enough to outweigh the veritable library of sources indicating Kyp’s superiority instead.