SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)

@Azronger The novel blurb isn't meant to function as proof in itself, let the other quotes posted speak to that, merely meant to solidify the point. Thanks for the sarcasm though, always appreciated.



@xolthol Cheers.

Azronger wrote:Amazing post. The part where you used the novel blurb was the best part.

Couldn't agree more Az.

@DarthSkywalker0 See above.

I have been out of town all week and will be driving long distance all day today. Since the deadline for my next post is today, would you mind if I took an extra 2 days to finish and submit my response?

@SithArchaeologist You can have 4 if you'd like?

Appreciated.

Any time.

Let's examine your arguments, shall we?

Rebuttal:

First off, you spend a great deal of time confusing knowledge and mastery: they are not one and the same. Regardless, I'd like to debunk the interpretations you make of a couple of these quotes.

DC77 wrote:Luke even believed Jacen could do just about anything:

Bloodlines wrote:"Try Jacen. He might be able to do just about anything these days."

You use this to try and say Luke actually believed Jacen could do almost anything when this is clearly some wry banter. Luke doesn't know what Caedus has been up to and he knows a lot of things that surprise Luke. That's all Luke is acknowledging here.

DC77 wrote:Jaina backs this up, stating that even Luke doesn't understand the full range of Jacen's powers:

Invincible wrote:Even Luke did not know the full of extent of Caedus's powers, and Jaina had no illusions about being her brother's equal in terms of Force strength.

This is one of your more obvious reaches. This isn't saying that Luke doesn't understand Caedus' abilities, it's saying that he doesn't know what Caedus knows. In other words, he isn't sure what Caedus knows and what he doesn't. Not that Caedus knows things Luke doesn't understand.

Next, you move on to Caedus' pain tolerance. I don't have much to counter here, as it's no great secret that Caedus has one of the highest pain tolerances in the mythos. However, I do want to point out this feat for Kyp:

Jedi Academy III: Champions of the Force wrote:‘Somehow Kyp had crammed himself inside the small volume of the message cylinder, a vessel barely large enough to hold a child. But Kyp had managed to crush his legs, fold his arms until the bones snapped, pressed down on his rib cage until his ribs cracked, compacting himself.’

The disparity in pain tolerance between the two combatants here is not so great that Caedus will be walking off blows that kill Kyp.

As for Kyp's illusions, you make one very humorous claim:

DC77 wrote: He's been able to fool force users more powerful than Kyp, such as Luke...

You say this, yet your own quote says this (emphasis mine):

Bloodlines wrote:It was an exhausting maneuver, nothing beyond him when dealing with ordinary people, but something that took all his strength when deceiving a Jedi Master of Luke's stature.

All his strength? Lol. Kyp is far more powerful than Mara, whom Caedus was able to successfully fool in combat. If fooling Luke takes all of Caedus' strength, even if fooling Kyp takes somewhat less than that, he won't be able to pull it off while Kyp is actively attacking him, not unless he wants to get bisected.

Now, to dispel the notion that Caedus is somehow "confirmed" to be Kyp's superior: let's not fool ourselves. We both know that character opinions are not infallible and can be overruled when there is clear evidence to the contrary. We have that here. Kyp is demonstrably far more powerful than Caedus. Unless you have an OOU source proclaiming his supremacy, we can safely ignore his accolades in this regard.

Lastly:

DC77 wrote:Jacen being a better swordsman is a borderline fact. Luke compares Kyp to Kyle Katarn in this field:

The quote you use is here:

Backlash wrote:Gaalan struck at Luke, high, low, a series of subtle and sophisticated blows that would have bewildered any lesser duellist. He was good; Luke gave him that. He might have been a match for an expert swordsmaster such as Kyp or Kyle Katarn.

This is one of the most commonly misinterpreted quotes I see. Luke is not saying that Kyp and Kyle are equals, he's listing "expert duelists." It's similar to this quote from Maul:

Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter wrote:He longed to battle one of the truly great Jedi warriors: Plo Koon, perhaps, or Mace Windu. That would be a true test of his skill.

This quote isn't saying that Koon and Windu are equals, it's saying that they would both test Maul. Likewise, your quote isn't saying that Kyp and Kyle are equals, it's saying that Gaalan would be a challenge for both. Caedus being a superior duelist is far from confirmed fact.

I believe that is all I need to say. I will save any further arguments until you counter my opener.

Damn, exactly the kind of rebuttal that I was thinking when I read his post. Nice counter.

Good post.

The use of "Try Jacen. He might be able to do just about anything these days." As an actual argument for Caedus made me cringe. Real hard.

Honestly, yeah.

gweed post...

I’m not very  impressed with this response honestly.

Caedus has just died in everyone's hearts, de luke scaling is faulty. I digress, It's not the debaters that restrict the quality here, though DC is riding right on the line of believable and insane, It's the matchup as a whole, njo muddies the waters for any proper debate because rather than debating things like lightsaber skill, forceknowledge, or application of abilities, it basically becomes a primitive phallus measuring contest of who can make the most ridiculous wanktastic scaling chain based off the most supporting evidence. The same goes for debating TOR, and while some like SKILLZ and Ant can make it entertainment to watch, the rest of the "debate" falls on deaf ears because the amount with which one can argue falls under such limited standards

That's the most ironic thing you've posted yet.

Shit stuff.

Spoiler:

In-sidiousvader wrote:Caedus has just died in everyone's hearts, de luke scaling is faulty. I digress, It's not the debaters that restrict the quality here, though DC is riding right on the line of believable and insane, It's the matchup as a whole, njo muddies the waters for any proper debate because rather than debating things like lightsaber skill, forceknowledge, or application of abilities, it basically becomes a primitive phallus measuring contest of who can make the most ridiculous wanktastic scaling chain based off the most supporting evidence. The same goes for debating TOR, and while some like SKILLZ and Ant can make it entertainment to watch, the rest of the "debate" falls on deaf ears because the amount with which one can argue falls under such limited standards

AP perfectly summed this up:

LadyKulvax wrote:That's the most ironic thing you've posted yet.

I don't recall asking for your opinion on anything in my post, nor did I ask for you to troll the thread.

Great post @SithArchaeologist.

Decent post... but try jacen. He might be able to do just about anything these days.

HP's pissed you stole him and MP's joke ISV.

DC77 wrote:HP's pissed you stole him and MP's joke ISV.

He did not see the genuis of linking the two together to form a cohesive artistic form of humor.

As a blue guy from Avatar once said
"To defeat an enemy you must know them, not simply thier battle tactics, but thier history, philosophy, art."

Expect something to drop Today, Thursday or Saturday, and if I'm extra lazy Sunday.