Kenobi vs. Dooku

Canon, respective primes

Dooku beats ROTS Kenobi again. Not sure about Ben Kenobi.

Dooku Beats rots kenobi

Old Ben idk

Dooku will always have his number. Better technical fighter and Kenobi has no real means of pressuring him.

Kenobi's superior performances against Anakin or Savage prove that he's not inferior to Dooku, but this matchup favors the Count. Either Kenobi sticks with Soresu, in which case the fight lasts forever because Dooku's Makashi is just as precise and economical, or Kenobi goes aggressive at some point and makes himself vulnerable to Dooku's expertise vs Ataru fighters.

Or Dooku just ragdolls him.

I mean, Canon Kenobi >>> Rots Kenobj.

The Count of Conundrums wrote:Or Dooku just ragdolls him.

Can't do that without an opening. He couldn't in AotC and he couldn't on Oba Diah. Thankfully, he's got a stylistic advantage and will eventually find said opening.

Kenobi not being ragdolled by Mustafar Vader indicates that Dooku can't just ragdoll him at will. Dooku still beats ROTS Kenobi but not a stomp.

Rohirrim wrote:

The Count of Conundrums wrote:Or Dooku just ragdolls him.

Can't do that without an opening. He couldn't in AotC and he couldn't on Oba Diah. Thankfully, he's got a stylistic advantage and will eventually find said opening.

Did I ever claim otherwise?

Considering it’s Ben (in canon), who was <= ANH Vader (essentially prime), he should take this by merit of Vader’s immense superiority to Dooku.

The Count of Conundrums wrote:

Rohirrim wrote:

The Count of Conundrums wrote:Or Dooku just ragdolls him.

Can't do that without an opening. He couldn't in AotC and he couldn't on Oba Diah. Thankfully, he's got a stylistic advantage and will eventually find said opening.

Did I ever claim otherwise?

So it goes back to fighting styles. What was your point then?

IG (Exists) wrote:Considering it’s Ben (in canon), who was <= ANH Vader (essentially prime), he should take this by merit of Vader’s immense superiority to Dooku.

I'm not convinced about this. Acording to "time of death" short story the fight was not that close and Ben was clearly outclassed. And i don't think that ANH Vader's superiority over Dooku is immense.

DarthAdi wrote:

IG (Exists) wrote:Considering it’s Ben (in canon), who was <= ANH Vader (essentially prime), he should take this by merit of Vader’s immense superiority to Dooku.

I'm not convinced about this. Acording to "time of death" short story the fight was not that close and Ben was clearly outclassed. And i don't think that ANH Vader's superiority over Dooku is immense.

Rebels Vader ~ ANH Vader, and we've clearly established that Ben is around Vader's level in the force during ANH during the movie, it's pretty evident. Lucas had established Ben with the intent of > Vader, and it's shown pretty well. ANH Vader jumps at least a stomp gap or two from Lords of the Sith, where he's said to be > any iteration of himself before, including Zonakin who all but stomped Dooku.

IG (Exists) wrote:

DarthAdi wrote:

IG (Exists) wrote:Considering it’s Ben (in canon), who was <= ANH Vader (essentially prime), he should take this by merit of Vader’s immense superiority to Dooku.

I'm not convinced about this. Acording to "time of death" short story the fight was not that close and Ben was clearly outclassed. And i don't think that ANH Vader's superiority over Dooku is immense.

Rebels Vader ~ ANH Vader, and we've clearly established that Ben is around Vader's level in the force during ANH during the movie, it's pretty evident. Lucas had established Ben with the intent of > Vader, and it's shown pretty well. ANH Vader jumps at least a stomp gap or two from Lords of the Sith, where he's said to be > any iteration of himself before, including Zonakin who all but stomped Dooku.

This is how the fight is described in "Time of death":
"Your powers are weak, old man." Our lightsabers clash. I try to push forward, only to be thrust violently back. It's like striking iron. There's no give in Vader's arms, and far too much in mine.

"You should not have come back," Vader tells me.

My resources are depleted, my body screaming with pain. I have no hope of winning this fight.

--I'm forced back, muscle burning, breath ragged. The grip of my lightsaber is slick in my hands, my ears ringing. - Obi-Wan Kenobi [Time of Death]

It's clear that Vader>Ben Kenobi
What Lucas said is not canon for Disney continuity. It's clear that his vision of suited Vader is totally different from how Disney see him.
Why is ANH Vader a stomp gap or two above his "Lord  of the Siths" version? I'm also not yet convinced that the LOTS quote includes Zonakin. If the quote includes Zonakin, why not Mortakin too?
That being said, i can see Ben winning but i'm sure is not even close to a stomp.

@DarthAdi: Where his amp on Mortis was completely different, Zonakin was still his inate power. Furthermore, ANH Vader has literally 15 years to grow with Skywalker level potential. There's no reason he wouldn't grow a stomp gap or two.

@IG (Exists): From what i understand Mortakin was also his inate power. The Father said that only the chosen one can tame both his childern. He attributed the ragdolling to Anakin's inate power not to the nexus or any external amp. Mortis only unlocked his full potential for a limited amount of time.
Even in canon is implied that Vader lost a good part of his potential (just not nearly as much as in legends) so i don't really buy that he can stomp his LOTS version just because he is a Skywalker.

How do i tag usernames with a space in them?

DarthAdi wrote:How do i tag usernames with a space in them?

Space isn't a problem my man, you have to put " like "ınsert name"

Thanks

DarthAdi wrote:@IG (Exists): From what i understand Mortakin was also his inate power. The Father said that only the chosen one can tame both his childern. He attributed the ragdolling to Anakin's inate power not to the nexus or any external amp. Mortis only unlocked his full potential for a limited amount of time.

Mortis itself is a massive nexus. There's no point in assuming otherwise, The force is strong there. 

Furthermore, he grows immensely, we assume that Vader grows immensely in legends from 18 BBY to like, ANH, so why should Canon be different?

IG (Exists) wrote:

DarthAdi wrote:@IG (Exists): From what i understand Mortakin was also his inate power. The Father said that only the chosen one can tame both his childern. He attributed the ragdolling to Anakin's inate power not to the nexus or any external amp. Mortis only unlocked his full potential for a limited amount of time.

Mortis itself is a massive nexus. There's no point in assuming otherwise, The force is strong there. 

Furthermore, he grows immensely, we assume that Vader grows immensely in legends from 18 BBY to like, ANH, so why should Canon be different?

Of course he grew in power. The growth was most likely significant but i doubt it was one or two stomp gaps like you said. Just look at his fight with Ahsoka. While he was clearly winning that fight it was not a curbstomp or something like that.

DarthAdi wrote:

IG (Exists) wrote:

DarthAdi wrote:@IG (Exists): From what i understand Mortakin was also his inate power. The Father said that only the chosen one can tame both his childern. He attributed the ragdolling to Anakin's inate power not to the nexus or any external amp. Mortis only unlocked his full potential for a limited amount of time.

Mortis itself is a massive nexus. There's no point in assuming otherwise, The force is strong there. 

Furthermore, he grows immensely, we assume that Vader grows immensely in legends from 18 BBY to like, ANH, so why should Canon be different?

Of course he grew in power. The growth was most likely significant but i doubt it was one or two stomp gaps like you said. Just look at his fight with Ahsoka. While he was clearly winning that fight it was not a curbstomp or something like that.

I hold that Ahsoka grew immensely as well. I mean, Vader has to have grown at least a stomp gap because of his complete superiority to the total inquisitorious, and he tells them that if they don't grow (noticably) he'll kill them. He hasn't killed all of them, so yeah.

Rohirrim wrote:

The Count of Conundrums wrote:

Rohirrim wrote:

The Count of Conundrums wrote:Or Dooku just ragdolls him.

Can't do that without an opening. He couldn't in AotC and he couldn't on Oba Diah. Thankfully, he's got a stylistic advantage and will eventually find said opening.

Did I ever claim otherwise?

So it goes back to fighting styles. What was your point then?

That Dooku doesn't necessarily need to wait for Kenobi to switch to Ataru in order for him to win this fight, he can just ragdoll him. He can create openings, he doesn't need Kenobi to go offensive and leave himself vulnerable.

NotAA3 wrote:

Rohirrim wrote:

The Count of Conundrums wrote:

Rohirrim wrote:

The Count of Conundrums wrote:Or Dooku just ragdolls him.

Can't do that without an opening. He couldn't in AotC and he couldn't on Oba Diah. Thankfully, he's got a stylistic advantage and will eventually find said opening.

Did I ever claim otherwise?

So it goes back to fighting styles. What was your point then?

That Dooku doesn't necessarily need to wait for Kenobi to switch to Ataru in order for him to win this fight, he can just ragdoll him. He can create openings, he doesn't need Kenobi to go offensive and leave himself vulnerable.

Based on? He did that when Kenobi was using Ataru, and knowledge of it is stated as a key factor to Dooku's victory. Furthermore, what you're claiming would mean that Dooku's offensive capabilities would be better than Anakin's.