Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion VS. Sheev Palpatine/Darth Sidious

@GodEmperorTarkin: Thanks for the quote.

But if Marek had the potential to become the most powerful force user ever and fail to win against Sidious there is some possibilities:
- He didn't focus his full power on Sidious but rather on the stormtroopers which attack his friends while enduring for a pretty long period of time the attack of the emperor (which is the reason why he died)
- The state where he was, wasn't full potential Marek
- The quote is wrong and full power marek isn't the most powerful force user ever.

This is clearly the only possibilities that can explain the failure of Marek against Sidious.

GodEmperorTarkin wrote:Yeah, it's just a quote Haden Blackman. Obviously Anakin still reigns supreme.

I mean it's not saying Marek has greater potential than Anakin though merely that Marek should he achieve his full potential would surpass every Force User there has ever been.

@Xolthol

The first of those conclusions is probably the most likely (the blast was omnidirectional so Sidious most likely wasn't hit by its full power).

@ArkhamAsylum3: I favor the last possibility but because I cannot proove it I will stay on the fact that the three possibilities are realistic.

I like how the actual novel states that Marek vs. Sidious is a 'desperate' battle with Sidious screaming in pain. But somehow Marek's full powered explosion doesn't harm Sheev. The only plausible explanation is that it absolutely did hurt Sheev and we just don't get that mentioned.

xolthol wrote:@ArkhamAsylum3: I favor the last possibility but because I cannot proove it I will stay on the fact that the three possibilities are realistic.

Why? If there are ways to the quote (saying Marek can become the most powerful Force User ever) fit in-universe then the logical conclusion isn't just to assume it's wrong when even you've admitted you can't prove it is so. The third conclusion is the one which is the least likely as it's the one we want to assume is wrong the most because it's in conflict with a quote.

@ArkhamAsylum3: because to my point if Marek was the most powerful force user ever, he should have defeat Sidious even with the context here. But tbh I didn't want to argue on this theory because we didn't have enough material to bring a good argumentation.

@Xolthol

because to my point if Marek was the most powerful force user ever, he should have defeat Sidious even with the context here.

Why? He literally had to lower his defenses so he could strike at the Imperials meaning he could only strike once thus released an omnidirectional blast to kill all the imperials so he didn't hit Sidious with its full potency.

But tbh I didn't want to argue on this theory because we didn't have enough material to bring a good argumentation.

Okay.

1. TPM Sidious
2. RotS Sidious
3. TFU Sidious
4. RotJ Sidious
5. DE Sidious

Edit: I've just noticed the valk vs sheev thread @Azronger made is supposed to be the only thread on the subject so my apologies for adding another one.

Been done.

OT-Stops at 2, potentially 3.

I merged the threads.

Anyway, Sidious is factually above SWTOR Vitiate as of TPM, and Vitiate has no way to compensate for his inferior strength; he's clearly not more or even as skilled as Sidious, so he stops at 1 in KingofBlades' gauntlet.

It's literal Canon fact that Sith Emperor was merely a mask and he's been Valkorion, Immortal Emperor for centuries at that point. So no.

TPM Sheev beats any version of Vitiate/Valkorion imo.

Literally any comparison fails to suggest that at all, in what way can TPM Sidious death wave a planet as a spirit? Because then he might be sub-SWTOR Vitiate level.

Chee has also said Sidious's supremacy quotes are subjective. Not convinced Sidious scales above Valk via accolades tbh.

NotAA3 wrote:Chee has also said Sidious's supremacy quotes are subjective. Not convinced Sidious scales above Valk via accolades tbh.

Since when have we cared about Chee when it comes to quotes. These accolades don't scale TPM Sidious above Valkorion only SWTOR Vitiate(if you believe he is a Sith).

@DarthSkywalker0

Since when have we cared about Chee when it comes to quotes.

Since when have we not? As far as I'm concerned Chee is an authority on the matter and unless you have valid reasons why I should dismiss his word I'm going to take it as legit.

These accolades don't scale TPM Sidious above Valkorion only SWTOR Vitiate(if you believe he is a Sith).

I know.

Since when have we not? As far as I'm concerned Chee is an authority on the matter and unless you have valid reasons why I should dismiss his word I'm going to take it as legit.

 

The biggest debate of the last few years--Ant vs Az.  

Quotes are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case will be made within the debate itself.

I don't care about Chee because I don't see any reason why I should. My methodology is about creating an empirical ranking not about adhering to LFL policy. 

Depending on how close to Plagueis, TPM Sidious is, Vitiate either loses to him or definitely to ROTS Sidious. Valkorion loses to ROTS Sidious imo from a mixture of having the power to compete, vastly better close quarters abilities and a speed advantage, but definitely stops at TFU - ROTJ levels of Sidious.

@DarthSkywalker0

The biggest debate of the last few years--Ant vs Az.

Rules of a debate I'm not involved in are of no concern to me as they aren't binding on the general forum.

I don't care about Chee because I don't see any reason why I should. My methodology is about creating an empirical ranking not about adhering to LFL policy.

Then there's clearly a difference in methodology between us.

Rules of a debate I'm not involved in are of no concern to me as they aren't binding on the general forum.

Well, that wasn't my point. 


Your claim: Since when have we not?
 
My Response: WE haven't abided by it in the biggest event in SW debating history.

I had DE Sidiois above Valkorion during my last exile.

But I hear new developments have been made regarding Valks power so I dunno who would win now.

Except that's not rules for the forum but rather a specific debate. I'm questioning when the forum has decided not to endorse Chee's comments.

Valk splits with TFU Sids, Vitiate dies to TPM or ROTS Sheev.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Valk splits with TFU Sids, Vitiate dies to TPM or ROTS Sheev.

What feats do either TPM or ROTS Sheev have that can compare to the Ziost death wave; which didn't just decimate the surface but affected the very core of the planet? Because I've seen nothing so far but an appeal to supremacy quotes. Once you provide something comparable, then ROTS Sidious remains sub-spirit Vitiate who is << SWTOR Vitiate, who is <<< post-Ziost Valkorion.