Savage Opress vs ANH Darth Vader

Vader's much stronger. Savage is only even with Ventress in strength unamped.

Greysentinel365 wrote:Vader's much stronger. Savage is only even with Ventress in strength unamped.

...

That's not a superior strength showing. That's a durability showing for Savage.



Even with a full jump with his full weight Ventress can stop him. Even after this they bladelock for a while in the background with Ventress forcing him back. The only person Savage has legitimately overpowered in strength without a trance, amp or a hindered opponent is Adi Gallia. Whoop.

That’s striking force, not strength. Close enough though

They engage in a prolonged lock afterwards evenly until Ventress pushes him back.

That is strength.

Imo, he should be no slower than maul either

still vader stomps

Greysentinel365 wrote:That's not a superior strength showing. That's a durability showing for Savage.



Even with a full jump with his full weight Ventress can stop him. Even after this they bladelock for a while in the background with Ventress forcing him back. The only person Savage has legitimately overpowered in strength without a trance, amp or a hindered opponent is Adi Gallia. Whoop.

Three times during the fight he throws her like a ragdoll, then knocks her down with a single punch when she hits him half a dozen times. Blocking that strike forced her downwards with the effort and she's later retreating from him. It's made pretty clear that Ventress is faster but he's a lot stronger.

Regarding Ventress, if you look carefully at the following scene you'll see that Ventress has her legs anchored in a squat like position where she can get more purchase from the hip to resist the momentum of Savage's strikes. If she was standing perfectly straight her legs probably would have at least buckled.

You're confusing applicable strength, mass and durability.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:

His equality to Starkiller, even if you want to argue he is below him.

Why is Starkiller>Savage?

Is this a serious question?

I'm playing devils advocate rn.

This is pathetic. Reduced to such a low tier, how could you massacre my boy like this? How could you lower him to such a demeaning opponent. Savage oppress is so much better than this weak kinda flunky cyborg. Savage stomps

BreakofDawn wrote:I assume you mean Anakin and Obi-Wan? Savage was using Force rage at the time. 

Not anymore that he usually is. He's a dark sider, like Vader he's allowed to harness his rage, that's where they get their power from. He wasn't in that super frenzied circumstantial uncontrolled state of rage, as when Ventress and Dooku made him snap mentally. With Anakin and Kenobi it was just a casual encounter with two enemies he has no emotional connection too, he can easily apply that same state of rage against Vader in a random encounter. 

Most of those strength feats aren't comparable to Savage's best combatively applicable feats. Bending durasteel is a common feat for Force-sensitives and one Savage has replicated via breaking durasteel restraints in Death Sentance. Snaping an organic's neck isn't anything a normal person couldn't do.  

Can you give me the passage/scene of Vader nearly disarming Galen so I can assess it? From what I know Vader has a huge size advantage and a mental edge over Galen and I assume it wasn't something he was able to consistently replicate as from what I understand Galen beat him, but then I don't know much about TFU so feel free to correct me on this point. 

From what little I know of Galen I don't think his strength feats compare to what a combined effort from a seasoned Anakin and Kenobi so Savage still likely wins on feats.

Savage and Vader are around the same size. Savage is listed at 2.18m while Vader is 2.02m. Savage is also 145 kg while Vader is 136 kg. 

I'll admit that is new information to me; I assumed Vader was around the same size as Anakin who is only 6'2 and around 90 kg. That's certainly how it's portrayed in the movies, but I can accept it from an EU standpoint. Good find. 

It's still a considerable edge in Savage's favor though, that said. 2 meters is about 6'6-6'7 while 2.18 is 7'1. And Savage is still the solider of the two with a larger frame and more mass. And if anything it helps Savage because when a big man who is used to having a size advantage meets the one person bigger it can cause them considerable difficulty as they can't just rely on their usual overpowering style.

While off-balenced and Luke was raged amped.

I'll admit that wasn't the best example, Vader was on the precipice of the staircase and not in the best position to absorb the kick, my mistake. Luke being enraged is irrelevant though. Vader is a dark sider and possesses the same advantage. They both use Force equivalent of P.E.D. Same with Savage. Rage isn't an excuse when it's being applied against a fellow steroid abuser.

Based on what? Savage isn't faster or more athletic.

That's not the point, though I would argue he's the more fluid fighter. Savage being the larger of the two gets the edge in a toe-to-toe exchange. It's the smaller guy who needs to be more athletic and resourceful, not the larger guy. 

Look what happened when he tried to do this to a comparably strong Force user who was much more skilled:

TCW Maul is one of the few guys who is taller than Savage, unlike Vader, Anakin, Ventress, Dooku, Adi, and Kenobi. It's he who has the size advantage in terms of height and leverage, though Savage has more mass. I doubt TPM Maul or even SoD Maul could pull Savage's arm in a wrist lock at a much shorter height. It also helps that he has the mental edge. 

Plus Vader isn't as martially able as Maul, which is part of the reason Maul subdued him; with martial technique, at least not in terms of feats.

@O-Siri The passage regarding Galen that's being referred to involves several factors:

1.Galen's mental state (He'd not yet understood how to kill Vader without drawing upon hatred and thirst for revenge).

2.Galen was unaware of Vader's true strength, and caught off guard by it as a result.

3.Galen is inferior to Vader in strength anyway.

Once Galen gets over his initial surprise they even out in overall combat and Galen deflects his blows just fine, albeit Vader is the stronger of the two. Once Galen overcomes his psychological limitations he beats Vader back and curbstomps him, despite Vader's strength. So yeah, it's a non feat, plain and simple.

Not anymore that he usually is. He's a dark sider, like Vader he's allowed to harness his rage, that's where they get their power from. He wasn't in that super frenzied circumstantial uncontrolled state of rage, as when Ventress and Dooku made him snap mentally. With Anakin and Kenobi it was just a casual encounter with two enemies he has no emotional connection too, he can easily apply that same state of rage against Vader in a random encounter. 

I doubt it was just normal dark side anger. Besides being right after he snapped, his body language and actions scream rage amp. 

Most of those strength feats aren't comparable to Savage's best combatively applicable feats. Bending durasteel is a common feat for Force-sensitives and one Savage has replicated via breaking durasteel restraints in Death Sentance. Snaping an organic's neck isn't anything a normal person couldn't do.  

He also snapped through energy restraints and shattered a pillar in the process after having just willed himself back from the brink of death.

Can you give me the passage/scene of Vader nearly disarming Galen so I can assess it? From what I know Vader has a huge size advantage and a mental edge over Galen and I assume it wasn't something he was able to consistently replicate as from what I understand Galen beat him, but then I don't know much about TFU so feel free to correct me on this point. 

He's not. I'll admit that Galen was unprepared for his level of strength here.

From what little I know of Galen I don't think his strength feats compare to what a combined effort from a seasoned Anakin and Kenobi so Savage still likely wins on feats.

Anakin and Obi-Wan were fighting defensive against a rage amped opponent in an enclosed hallway which favoured Savage's longer reach and more effective weapon. 

I'll admit that is new information to me; I assumed Vader was around the same size as Anakin who is only 6'2 and around 90 kg. That's certainly how it's portrayed in the movies, but I can accept it from an EU standpoint. Good find. 

It's still a considerable edge in Savage's favor though, that said. 2 meters is about 6'6-6'7 while 2.18 is 7'1. And Savage is still the solider of the two with a larger frame and more mass. And if anything it helps Savage because when a big man who is used to having a size advantage meets the one person bigger it can cause them considerable difficulty as they can't just rely on their usual overpowering style.

That's true, but Savage's height and reach advantage is fairly negligible since he's really not that much bigger. Plus, Vader is just as capable at incorporating his skill advantage into his fighting technique as he is his strength, so I honestly don't think this makes too much of a difference. 

I'll admit that wasn't the best example, Vader was on the precipice of the staircase and not in the best position to absorb the kick, my mistake. Luke being enraged is irrelevant though. Vader is a dark sider and possesses the same advantage. They both use Force equivalent of P.E.D. Same with Savage. Rage isn't an excuse when it's being applied against a fellow steroid abuser.

I'd rather not comment too much on this, if it's all the same to you. I'm kind of saving this for my blog. 

That's not the point, though I would argue he's the more fluid fighter. Savage being the larger of the two gets the edge in a toe-to-toe exchange. It's the smaller guy who needs to be more athletic and resourceful, not the larger guy. 

Not necessarily. Obi-Wan repeatedly matched Maul head-on for example despite Maul having better strength feats. Dooku matched Anakin repeatedly due to his skill advantage despite Anakin being far stronger. Talzin held her own for a time against Mace Windu despite Windu's strength and skill advantage. Arcann and Vaylin fought evenly in KOTET despite the former having better strength feats. I'd actually say any notable advantage, be it in speed, strength, skill, agility, power or tactical thinking would give you a great chance at winning. Fortunately for Vader, he's better in speed, skill, power and tactical thinking, and comparable in strength and agility.

TCW Maul is one of the few guys who is taller than Savage, unlike Vader, Anakin, Ventress, Dooku, Adi, and Kenobi. It's he who has the size advantage in terms of height and leverage, though Savage has more mass.

Their duel had very little to do with height and leverage. Maul casually parries each of Savage's strikes as he steps back, then seizes him by the forearm when Savage over-reaches, before slamming him. There's honestly nothing about that that Vader couldn't replicate, except unlike Maul he wouldn't be holding back and would use that kind of opportunity to kill Savage. 

I doubt TPM Maul or even SoD Maul could pull Savage's arm in a wrist lock at a much shorter height.

Why not? 

It also helps that he has the mental edge. 

What do you mean?

Plus Vader isn't as martially able as Maul, which is part of the reason Maul subdued him; with martial technique, at least not in terms of feats.

I 100% disagree with this after looking back at Vader's feats. Barely a month into his suit, he outfought and killed 3 Jedi masters in close quarters combat while mentally hindered by his rage. Within a year, he could toy with an assassin who could blitz and wipe out about 20 highly trained soldiers without making a sound. By 17 BBY, he could hold his own against four Jedi attacking him from all sides, kill one and ragdoll the other three with the Force. He's also outmatched Ben Kenobi in both skill and power while mentally hindered, stomped entire militia groups, stomped a dark Jedi, stomped a group of special ops stormtroopers in a cramped area favouring them in fifteen seconds flat, and easily dispatched 2 Tu'kata Nobilis (whose dark side brethren have challenged the likes of Revan and Exar Kun).

BreakofDawn wrote:

Not anymore that he usually is. He's a dark sider, like Vader he's allowed to harness his rage, that's where they get their power from. He wasn't in that super frenzied circumstantial uncontrolled state of rage, as when Ventress and Dooku made him snap mentally. With Anakin and Kenobi it was just a casual encounter with two enemies he has no emotional connection too, he can easily apply that same state of rage against Vader in a random encounter. 

I doubt it was just normal dark side anger. Besides being right after he snapped, his body language and actions scream rage amp. 

Most of those strength feats aren't comparable to Savage's best combatively applicable feats. Bending durasteel is a common feat for Force-sensitives and one Savage has replicated via breaking durasteel restraints in Death Sentance. Snaping an organic's neck isn't anything a normal person couldn't do.  

He also snapped through energy restraints and shattered a pillar in the process after having just willed himself back from the brink of death.

Can you give me the passage/scene of Vader nearly disarming Galen so I can assess it? From what I know Vader has a huge size advantage and a mental edge over Galen and I assume it wasn't something he was able to consistently replicate as from what I understand Galen beat him, but then I don't know much about TFU so feel free to correct me on this point. 

He's not. I'll admit that Galen was unprepared for his level of strength here.

From what little I know of Galen I don't think his strength feats compare to what a combined effort from a seasoned Anakin and Kenobi so Savage still likely wins on feats.

Anakin and Obi-Wan were fighting defensive against a rage amped opponent in an enclosed hallway which favoured Savage's longer reach and more effective weapon. 

I'll admit that is new information to me; I assumed Vader was around the same size as Anakin who is only 6'2 and around 90 kg. That's certainly how it's portrayed in the movies, but I can accept it from an EU standpoint. Good find. 

It's still a considerable edge in Savage's favor though, that said. 2 meters is about 6'6-6'7 while 2.18 is 7'1. And Savage is still the solider of the two with a larger frame and more mass. And if anything it helps Savage because when a big man who is used to having a size advantage meets the one person bigger it can cause them considerable difficulty as they can't just rely on their usual overpowering style.

That's true, but Savage's height and reach advantage is fairly negligible since he's really not that much bigger. Plus, Vader is just as capable at incorporating his skill advantage into his fighting technique as he is his strength, so I honestly don't think this makes too much of a difference. 

I'll admit that wasn't the best example, Vader was on the precipice of the staircase and not in the best position to absorb the kick, my mistake. Luke being enraged is irrelevant though. Vader is a dark sider and possesses the same advantage. They both use Force equivalent of P.E.D. Same with Savage. Rage isn't an excuse when it's being applied against a fellow steroid abuser.

I'd rather not comment too much on this, if it's all the same to you. I'm kind of saving this for my blog. 

That's not the point, though I would argue he's the more fluid fighter. Savage being the larger of the two gets the edge in a toe-to-toe exchange. It's the smaller guy who needs to be more athletic and resourceful, not the larger guy. 

Not necessarily. Obi-Wan repeatedly matched Maul head-on for example despite Maul having better strength feats. Dooku matched Anakin repeatedly due to his skill advantage despite Anakin being far stronger. Talzin held her own for a time against Mace Windu despite Windu's strength and skill advantage. Arcann and Vaylin fought evenly in KOTET despite the former having better strength feats. I'd actually say any notable advantage, be it in speed, strength, skill, agility, power or tactical thinking would give you a great chance at winning. Fortunately for Vader, he's better in speed, skill, power and tactical thinking, and comparable in strength and agility.

TCW Maul is one of the few guys who is taller than Savage, unlike Vader, Anakin, Ventress, Dooku, Adi, and Kenobi. It's he who has the size advantage in terms of height and leverage, though Savage has more mass.

Their duel had very little to do with height and leverage. Maul casually parries each of Savage's strikes as he steps back, then seizes him by the forearm when Savage over-reaches, before slamming him. There's honestly nothing about that that Vader couldn't replicate, except unlike Maul he wouldn't be holding back and would use that kind of opportunity to kill Savage. 

I doubt TPM Maul or even SoD Maul could pull Savage's arm in a wrist lock at a much shorter height.

Why not? 

It also helps that he has the mental edge. 

What do you mean?

Plus Vader isn't as martially able as Maul, which is part of the reason Maul subdued him; with martial technique, at least not in terms of feats.

I 100% disagree with this after looking back at Vader's feats. Barely a month into his suit, he outfought and killed 3 Jedi masters in close quarters combat while mentally hindered by his rage. Within a year, he could toy with an assassin who could blitz and wipe out about 20 highly trained soldiers without making a sound. By 17 BBY, he could hold his own against four Jedi attacking him from all sides, kill one and ragdoll the other three with the Force. He's also outmatched Ben Kenobi in both skill and power while mentally hindered, stomped entire militia groups, stomped a dark Jedi, stomped a group of special ops stormtroopers in a cramped area favouring them in fifteen seconds flat, and easily dispatched 2 Tu'kata Nobilis (whose dark side brethren have challenged the likes of Revan and Exar Kun).

a bit offtopic question why vader is so lowballed in this forums (not counting the vine considering the only one who keeps doing that is tenebrous dude,space battle forums and kmc are pretty much dead tbh)

a bit offtopic question why vader is so lowballed in this forums (not counting the vine considering the only one who keeps doing that is tenebrous dude,space battle forums and kmc are pretty much dead tbh)

I wouldn't say he's lowballed, just underrated. Not enough people distinguish between Lucas' Vader and the EU Vader.

{@=62}BreakofDawn{/@} @Thelordofhungers='mentiontag' title='Viewing profile: BreakofDawn'>@BreakofDawn @Thelordofhunger[/mention] wrote:

a bit offtopic question why vader is so lowballed in this forums (not counting the vine considering the only one who keeps doing that is tenebrous dude,space battle forums and kmc are pretty much dead tbh)

I wouldn't say he's lowballed, just underrated. Not enough people distinguish between Lucas' Vader and the EU Vader.

Pretty much that. Just like TCW Grievous and EU Grievous, there are two contrasting narratives regarding Vader's progression from Anakin. 

I for the record am considering Prime EU composite Vader here and in most threads even though the OP says ANH Vader, just to avoid devolving the thread into another Vader placement thread.

@The Lord Of Hunger: Because Ant swayed a forum majority during his debates with Elm and Az respectively, and seriously debunked most of his major accomplishments. Following this most of his competent debaters kinda distanced themselves from him, allowing ISV to step in and try to debate for the character, which due to his ineptude, brought him to the point of ruin. Most people (Me included) don't have Vader low, just not high either.

@DC77 (Reborn) What exactly did he debunk, though? Most of his EU stuff is exactly what it looks like.

You read the debates. You know damn well.

I actually don't. I skimmed a lot of the time and then got bored.

Just skimmed through and the only thing he seems to have "debunked" is the Emperor feat, which I thought went without saying.

O-siri wrote:

I'll admit that wasn't the best example, Vader was on the precipice of the staircase and not in the best position to absorb the kick, my mistake. 

I'm not going to dive too deep into the debate at hand (personally, I see Vader winning due to far, far greater experience and more demonstrated control over the Force, with comparable raw power), but I do want to address this one little point.

Vader might have been at the precipice of the staircase, and "not in the best position to absorb the kick," but those aren't really vital factors when you consider what the kick did. Vader wasn't toppled and sent tumbling down the staircase. It wasn't a matter of balance. If you watch what happens in the movie, Luke's kick sent Vader flying over the staircase. Vader's body doesn't come into contact with the stairs. He's sent soaring through the air, and only touches the ground when he hits the base of the staircase below. Luke ragdolled Vader with a kick in much the same way Vader ragdolled Cere with a backhand in Fallen Order, or Ezra in Rebels (I know this is a Legends debate, not canon, but these are the first comparisons that came to mind). 

This isn't really an anti-feat for Vader, by the way. It's more of a feat for RotJ Luke. A lot of people just seriously underestimate RotJ Luke's level of Force augmentation, especially when he's enraged. Light side Luke midway through the duel had enough Force augmentation to overpower Vader in a lightsaber clash (as seen immediately before Luke leaps away to the catwalk). This happens while Vader is explicitly drawing on his hatred due to having been humiliated by Luke nearly defeating him, per the novelization. When drawing on the dark side, Luke's raw physical strength and speed utterly overwhelmed Vader, who was stated in many sources to be stronger than ever during that duel. In terms of raw augmented strength Enraged RotJ Luke>Base RotJ Luke>Enraged RotJ Vader>Base RotJ Vader>Most other characters in the franchise. 

Now, whether or not Savage is stronger than Vader is an entirely different discussion, and one I haven't done nearly enough research on to speculate responsibly. Based purely on observable physicality and what I recall of the two's feats, I'd say Savage might be slightly above Vader in terms of strength, but I'd argue Vader has far, far greater durability (considering the amount of insane things we've seen him survive, including iirc a nuclear blast in the finale of Coruscant Nights I). But pure physicals are only one facet of a battle, and Vader seems to have every other edge you could ask for. More consistent displays of power, much higher end feats, more impressive control, ect.