★ Top Fifteen Tournament #5 - Anakin Skywalker / Darth Krayt

Vader

Just for clarities sake, yeah I’m sticking with Krayt.

I withdraw my vote, I realized I want to be neutral in this.

Shit, team KFV is Greydolling the opposition.

I'd like to further elaborate on Hett vs. Kenobi, beyond my initial reply. Ant will come through with much more elaborate sources.

Does Obi Wan scale from Anakin/Vader?

It is repeatedly emphasized across IU and especially OOU sources, including Lucas himself, that Obi Wan's ability to compete with Anakin is predicated on several major factors, most notably his intimate familiarity with Anakin's style to the point where he basically knows every single move that Anakin is going to make. Lucas and others otherwise describe the gap is very, very large.

(The sources will be collected in due time)

Some people question why that wouldn't just cancel out and work both ways. Well, a greater mutual familiarity could lengthen the duel by making it much harder to get past one another, and would especially favor the teacher and the one who is on the defensive. Some also question whether familiarity is that big of a factor - but the absurd level of familiarity between these two ("more intimately than lovers") is indeed a HUGE factor.

This isn't a speculative fanon - it's repeated over and over by Lucas, Nick Gillard, the RotS novelization, sourcebooks, etc. What's emphasized in particular by Lucas (and others) is that Obi Wan is not in the same tier as Anakin as a combatant, and is surviving because of these factors.

Some wonder why they matched in TK - but seeing as how Obi Wan is retreating from Vader, explicitly stated by Lucas and others to be outmatched, and physically dominated in the RotS novel, it's clear that the TK battle isn't proportional to the dueling battle. This happens to match up with the convincing evidence that has been presented in other threads about Mustafar Vader's Force techniques being hindered (e.g. he couldn't sense Obi-Wan descending to Mustafar because of his rage), even if he still retained his dueling ability.

So this Hett vs. Obi Wan scaling isn't even ultimately relevant. There's a temptation to do a handwaving of "well Hett might be close to Obi Wan who might be somewhat far from Anakin but the years up to Legacy make up for that", but there is no actual reason to believe that. It's predicated on incorrect assumptions about Hett's parity with Obi Wan and Obi Wan's parity with Anakin. Both gaps are quite massive, and are by no means guarantees for Hett to make up for. The gap between "base" Obi Wan and peak Vader is Vader being above Zonakin who curbstomps Dooku who curbstomps Obi Wan.

But what about Obi Wan's amp?

If you believe in Obi Wan's amp due to letting go of his attachment, it isn't a permanent one. He is clearly crying over Anakin right after the fight, and does things like:

Sometimes while riding, his thoughts would stray to Padme on her deathbed. Speaking of Anakin, her last words had been, "There's still good in him."

And then he would think of how he had left Anakin to die on Mustafar.

He tried to suppress such thoughts. The problem was Obi-Wan remembered so many good years with Anakin, and really had loved him like a brother. It was still so hard for him to believe that Anakin had turned to evil. And even after all the unforgivable things he had done under the name of Darth Vader, Obi-Wan still found himself missing his friend Anakin Skywalker. (Credit to Ant)

So he clearly hasn't permanently let go of his attachment as of that time. Maybe he gets a similar amp when he runs faster than any Jedi in history or gets into some very specific state, but he can't be assumed to be walking around with this enlightenment amp.

Does Hett scale to Obi Wan?

Firstly, Obi Wan clearly isn't trying to kill Hett, while Hett is explicitly vowing to kill Obi Wan.

Secondly, Obi Wan notes Hett's environmental advantage several times. In fact, he frankly emphasizes it more than Hett's actual skill. The one part of the passage where Obi Wan says he's not deflecting his attacks with ease, he attributes this to the environment, implying that he would do so with ease otherwise:

Ben blocked each blow, but he wasn't doing it with ease. Hett was far more experienced at fighting on the sand and in the desert heat.

Nor does the alleged intuition that sand or the desert heat shouldn't matter override Obi Wan's experienced opinion on the matter.

Even then, as soon as Obi Wan remembers that he's defending Luke, he disarms Hett in seconds:

As much as he hoped to avoid killing Hett, he also knew that they couldn't keep fighting indefinitely.

But in the end, Ben knew he wasn't fighting for his own life. He was fighting for Luke's.

Quickly raising his left hand, Ben used the Force to push out at Hett, shoving him back through the air as Ben's lightsaber swept up and through Hett's right arm. Hett shouted as his arm fell away from his body. As Hett stumbled back, Ben used the Force to tear Hett's other lightsaber from his left hand's grip. Both of Hett's lightsabers deactivated as they sailed past Ben and landed in the sand behind him.

So Obi Wan's thought process:

1. I don't want to accidentally kill Hett!
   
2. This fight can't last forever...
   
3. I'm fighting to protect Luke.
   
4. By sheer coincidence, I suddenly curbstomp Hett!
   

The internal monologue is chronological - Obi Wan thinks about Luke and just happens to win right after. That's probably not a coincidence.

Obi Wan certainly had a comparable or greater level of motivation on Mustafar, and exerted himself far more (Ant can post more details). He was drawing on everything he ever had there in the biggest fight of his life, while here it's like...wow the sand is annoying...well I don't wanna kill this guy...but time to end it...ok it's ended!

So yeah again, Hett is like when Captain American got mjolnir and got some "A for effort" hits in on Thanos. That doesn't scale Captain America to Thanos - Thanos still clearly dominates him when he gets serious.

So we have here:

• Hett's environmental advantage without which Obi Wan would deflect his attacks with ease.
  
• Hett's willingness to kill Obi Wan vs. Obi Wan's lack of desire to kill Hett.
  
• Obi Wan disarming Hett in seconds when he gets motivated.
  
• Obi Wan drawing on every ounce of his being to fight Anakin.
  
• Obi Wan intimately knowing every single most Anakin will make.
  
• Obi Wan backtracking and using the environment to his advantage against Anakin.
  
• Obi Wan still getting physically dominated earlier in the fight.
  
• The gap between Obi Wan and Anakin explicitly being very large.
  

Hett has a HUGE road to make up for to scale back up to Knightfall Vader. Just saying "well he seems to have made up for it by Reborn" is a lot more convincing if you think he almost beat Obi Wan who was close to Anakin, when this really isn't true. Just because Krayt grew far more powerful doesn't mean he made up this gap - Obi Wan grew far more powerful from AotC to RotS but was still below Dooku.

This feat, I think, is also debunked.

My vote goes to...

Spoiler:

Team KFV all the way

Vader.

@DarthAnt66 I withdraw my vote for now, waiting until everyone have provided all arguments and after I cleared my mind.

@KingofBlades You didn't tag me btw, lol.


Also @IdrisianGraecus, I told you; you need to get over it. Being rejected doesn't make the person who rejected you gay.

Mods are hiding the Truth
AHHHHHHHHHHHH!

WalkingInCircles wrote:@KingofBlades You didn't tag me btw, lol.


Also @IdrisianGraecus, I told you; you need to get over it. Being rejected doesn't make the person who rejected you gay.

Bruh.... fuck you

Sorry, still not my type. I'd really rather not with you.

Damn. IG just got murdered.

This is child abuse

Normally, child abuse requires someone to care about the child enough to class it as abuse.

Ouch

I vote Darth Krayt

Yeah but no cap, like Krayt stomps

This will be our last post, and it is jointly written by myself and @ILS. Seeing as this tourney turned into vitriolic gerrymandering and our opposition merely nitpicking at our points, responding to arguments of nuance with crude dismissals and trivialized caricatures, it is no longer in our interest to continue despite our initial excitement and the fun we have had. With that said - and as should evidently have become clear - we found none of the opposing side’s arguments convincing and concede nothing. The initial voting deadline was meant to be 48 hours as it has been with every other round thus far, but it got extended to 72 hours, so that’s what we are adhering to. We rest our case.

The first relevant feat for Darth Krayt is his fight against Obi-Wan Kenobi as A’Sharad Hett in 17 BBY. Kenobi himself was ”equally matched in strength and skill” with Knightfall Vader, and ran faster than any Jedi or Sith in galactic history when motivated by the survival of infant Luke Skywalker. Kenobi was noted to not have declined since then at all, and Luke’s life was at stake in his duel with Hett as well. Despite this, Hett gave him an excellent fight. Hett then fell to the dark side, studied the lore of Korriban for two decades and was noted to have gained ”a great deal of strength in the Force,” after which he attained a purified connection to the dark side of the Force from his experiences as a prisoner of the Yuuzhan Vong. Finally, he took on the appellation of Darth Krayt and founded his own Sith Order in secret.

Krayt’s cosmic significance rippled throughout the Force, and the threat he represented was one of the primary motivators for Jacen Solo’s turn to the dark side: to stop the ”Dark Man” he had seen sitting on the Throne of Balance in his visions; similar visions about Krayt plagued Grand Master Luke Skywalker himself as well. In 44 ABY, Krayt emerged from hiding and teamed up with Skywalker to take down the eldritch Force entity Abeloth. Before the end of Dark Empire, Luke was already on level of Yoda, RotS Sidious, and Knightfall Vader, if not above them, and by the end of Dark Empire, he straight up outdueled DE Sidious - a DE Sidious who was “more powerful than ever” in a clone body that was ”much younger and stronger” than his previous one which was already stronger than his original body from Revenge of the Sith. And in the fight against Abeloth, Krayt performed comparably to a Luke with 30 years of power increments over DE Luke, and overall caused the most damage to Abeloth with his Force drain.

Krayt would continue to study the Force for the next 93 years, expanding his reach into all corners of the galaxy to plunder knowledge and lore from present day and eons past. His cosmic influence likewise continued to grow, and as of 130 ABY, he had ”bent the Force to his will” and ushered in a period of imbalance ”unseen except during the grimmest times in galactic history,” one in which ”the influence of the dark side is stronger than ever.” Upon his death and rebirth, Krayt turns himself into a focusing mechanism of the dark side itself analogous to RotJ Sidious by sending ripples across its fabric to every individual attuned to it, bending the ”millions” of Sith Troopers to his will in the process.

And of course, Reborn Krayt is much more powerful than any of his other iterations, his powers at their very apex. Before death, he discovered the secret of dark transfer and shatterpoint to perceive metaphysical fault lines in reality; in death, he comprehended the galaxy anew and reached a new state of dark side enlightenment; and in rebirth, he had healed every microbial flaw in his spirit and body, strengthening both by curing himself of the yorik coral seeds that had been ”gnawing at his guts” for the past 113 years and even regenerating his severed arm, returning to the galaxy with his powers ”multiplied.” Reborn Krayt also has the feat of utterly dominating the extremely powerful and talented Cade Skywalker with the Force, and annihilating him in lightsaber combat with the single most devastating speedblitz in all of Star Wars media.

Knightfall Vader is toast.

I. RAGDOLLING DISPUTE

Azronger and ILS think Krayt is dragging Cade across the page. I think Krayt is smashing the rocks as Cade jumps off them. Let's take a deeper look.

A. CADE SKYWALKER'S DEMEANOR 

Only Azronger even tries to address Cade cracking jokes, mocking Krayt, and bragging about his newfound power while he's getting 'ragdolled'. I cannot stress this enough: have you ever seen anyone joke, mock, and brag about their abilities while getting the shit kicked out of them? 

X is thrown into the dirt and stomped on by Y.

X: "Haha. I learned a lot from your mom since we last fought."

Like, what? With the exception of ILS' posts here or Azronger's posts in Super Fight III, this scenario would never play out. 

Azronger's rationalization is two-fold:

(1) "Force users only can't talk while being Force choked."

I cannot think of a single instance across hundreds of telekinetic expressions where a Force user is talking while being zipped around. To name a few, Gavar stops talking mid-sentence when Luke shoves him, Revan and Bastila cannot talk when Malak puts them in Force Whirlwind, Marr and Satele cannot talk when Revan puts them in Force Whirlwind. Options: Writers decide for the first time ever that a character should talk extensively while being ragdolled VS. the character just isn't being ragdolled. 

(2) "Cade's high pain tolerance allows him to talk anyway." 

There's no inherent excruciating pain involved in being whipped around in a circle or thrown across a room. The act itself just interferes with your motor abilities. Even if Cade were somehow powering through this consistently upheld dynamic and talking, again, why on earth would Cade be joking, mocking, and bragging? Options: Writers decide Cade is sadist and/or so egotistical he's not aware he's being thrown through the air VS. Cade isn't being ragdolled.

B. THE ROCKS

Azronger argues that "Krayt is simply dragging him through the air in a telekinetic grip and causes some collateral damage as he liberally spams his potent powers." This... is a bunch of gobbledygook. To throw someone with the Force, you have to grab onto their body/essence. Take Luke: 

"Desperate to locate his attacker, Luke reached out in all directions and pulled, grabbing at every being he could sense. He felt a jolt of surprise from Leia and let her loose. He found the Qrephs just ahead, standing well apart, two beings full of fear and anger and hatred. He pulled harder and felt them slide toward him, their fear blazing into panic and their anger deepening to rage."[hideedit]

So, Azronger's argument would have to be Krayt grabbed both Cade... and the pillar? But the pillar stays firm -- just some rocks explode off it -- so that seems like a bust. And why would Krayt even grab the rocks? Azronger chalks it up to collateral damage, but that would have to be intentional for this try to work. 



And Krayt's neither looking nor has his hand directed toward Cade. He's looking at rocks and has his hand pointed toward exploding rocks. Cade is further back. Try to visualize throwing someone with the Force -- you're not going to be staring at their end destination before they reach the spot.



The panel's drawn on a slant, so I tilted it to make it normal. As more clearly shown, if Krayt were dragging Cade, Cade shouldn't be in that position. His legs and lower torso should have slammed into the corner of that pillar. Also, note that Cade's foot is resting along the rock, which goes in line with my belief Cade's bouncing off the pillar (with that rock as a springboard). That's less consistent with Azronger's idea of Krayt hurling him through the air.

C. SWITCHING TACTICS

Krayt responds to Cade's jokes, mocks, and brags by saying, "It doesn't matter," stopping his telekinesis, and switching to Force lightning. That sequence logically follows if Krayt's not ragdolling Cade. "It doesn't matter" = 'Your resistance is irrelevant.' "Stopping his telekinesis and switching to Force lightning" = 'Telekinesis isn't working, let's try a new power.' Azronger's take is far more shaky, though. "It doesn't matter" = 'Uh, I'm not sure why you're joking, mocking, and bragging as I'm oneshotting you?' "Stopping his telekinesis and switching to Force lightning" = ??? (why would Krayt abandon a successful technique?). Perhaps you could say Krayt changes abilities for the lolz and to prolong Cade's suffering, but he offers Cade to surrender twice-over, so Krayt's demonstrably not interested in stretching this out needlessly. 

II. DARTH KRAYT'S MOTIVES

A. TO KILL, OR NOT TO KILL

Everyone's saying Krayt wants to kill Cade. No. Krayt wants to kill Cade. To quote Ostrander, "He still has a vision for the galaxy but it's a little more extreme. The only way anyone can truly share his vision is to go through what he has - to die." This plays out explicitly -- Krayt brings Cade to the brink of death then back again. Obviously Krayt will avoid inflicting unhealable injuries like a decapitation, but he's definitely going to seize on anything short of that.

B. FACIAL EXPRESSIONS

Yes, Krayt was angry at Wyyrlok because he betrayed him and tried to kill him. Perhaps even ILS-levels of angry. Consequently, Krayt's shown snarling and screaming as he fights Wyyrlok. Why that's taken as our standard example for how Krayt normally approaches fights? Let's take a look through your scans again:

https://i.imgur.com/dJ3oAuL.png -- this is before the fight started. Next.

https://i.imgur.com/5ToomMn.png -- there's no facial expressions here either way. Next.

https://i.imgur.com/xdrfazx.png -- at the very least, Krayt's frowning/concentrating. Next.

https://i.imgur.com/a7buqQi.png -- Krayt's visibly angry, lol. Next.

https://i.imgur.com/qINJaZV.png -- there's no facial expressions here either way.

You can say there's too little to extract from Krayt's faces either-way, or that Krayt's concentrating and even growing angry at Cade, but building your case around Krayt apparently fighting casually based on far away comic panels that can be taken ten different ways is weak. 


C. COUNTING LIGHTSABERS

I wonder what Teras Kasi technique Krayt is using when he awkwardly reaches across the distance between them, in the path of Cade’s lightsaber, and places a palm on Cade’s chest. It’s obviously not the same technique he used on Obi-Wan where just as he recalls his saber to his right hand, Kenobi swings at him, which he blocks awkwardly with his left blade before conveniently not swinging his right blade in the same direction - into the path of Kenobi’s blade - but rather comes over Kenobi’s blade and hits him in the jaw.

Uh, yeah, there's a lot of different Teras Kasi moves. Duh? Teras Kasi masters are experts in landing physical blows. Krayt takes advantage of that here.

he is at no point angry (his grimace when summoning lightning doesn’t show him enraged or that his telekinesis failed lol)

This is anger:

Your contention that Krayt isn’t at a disadvantage because he is a master of Teräs Käsi, and that swapping his second blade for dark transfer is simply another legitimate strategy makes no sense because dark transfer can be used with just a few fingers - you don’t need your whole hand 

Tapping Cade with a few fingers isn't going to win him the fight. Krayt has to either slice him with a lightsaber or land a strong lighining + shatterpoint punch. Krayt's simply emphasizing his Niman and Teras Kasi mastery over his Jar'Kai mastery for the purposes of this fight, perhaps out of preference for winning via Dark Transfer (though, as addressed earlier, that doesn't mean Krayt will pass on an opening to strike Cade down with a lightsaber). 

and shatterpoint, an ability exceedingly similar to dark transfer, can be used with just the pommel of a lightsaber, so Krayt can wield two blades and still feasibly use dark transfer. 

I assume you're referencing how Caedus can break Mandalorian armor with a lightsaber pommel. Caedus can't just do that everywhere on the suit -- he has to hit a hyper-specific spot. Everywhere else wouldn't work. Likewise, Krayt's hypothetical pommel strike would only work if he finds some physical shatterpoint (if that's even a thing) on Cade and hits there, whereas slamming his palm against Cade and using lightning plus shatterpoint creates its own opening. 

III. THE EXTENDED BATTLE

See below: Krayt is standing right next to the entrance so it makes sense that the fight would spill down the steps.

I'm glad you agree. Krayt's fighting to kill and using a variety of Force powers, yet the fight still moves noticeably far from the starting position. 

*All we see of the lightsaber duel are two panels, between which we know nothing happened, because in the first one Krayt’s hand is glowing, telegraphing the dark transfer attack that we see in the second panel. Ergo, practically no time passed between the panels, yet Krayt managed to close the wide distance between him and Cade and not only touch him, but slam and pin him to the ground. Just imagine a scenario where you are a skilled swordmaster and your opponent is signalling to you he’s about to attack with his right hand from several meters away, and you’re holding a weapon that can disintegrate his hand upon contact. The logical decision there would be to intercept his hand with the weapon before it touches your chest like any trained swordsman would do - unless of course the attack comes so fast that despite being so far away and seeing it coming, you are utterly unable to react and before you know it, you are pinned to the floor, lightsaber still in hand. That is what Krayt did to Cade, and that is wholly unprecedented in Star Wars lore. Not even Darth Sidious’s famed speedblitzes were of the same caliber: versus the B-team he had to use a ”concentrated dark side confusion haze,” and distract them with trickery and by feigning weakness in the novel, and Kit Fisto still managed to block several strikes before going down; and versus Darth Maul, Maul ”parried desperately” “as he sought to counter his former Master’s blows” and ”danced away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another” before being overwhelmed.

Cade and Krayt fought throughout the Sith Temple entrance, down the stairs, and onto the outer platform, all while being in close-quarters combat. If Krayt could "speedblitz" Cade, then he would have sooner. Obviously. Krayt's taking advantage of Cade's visibly vulnerable and awkward position by striking him before he can defend against it. That's not much different from fighting someone then striking them down. That's not a "speedblitz". An equally or more impressive speed display is Cade Force pulling his lightsaber from ways away, spinning around, and stabbing Krayt in the chest all faster than Krayt could react, yet I'm not going around saying Cade "speedblitzs."

IV. HOLISTICS

A. DOOKU VS DARTH KRAYT

Here's Dooku fighting Sora Bulq and Tholme. Dooku kicks Vos away in the third panel, blade-locks him just to mock him, knocks him off balance with a telekinetic attack, slams him against a wall while not even looking, then chokes him out. That’s a stomp.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/104108/3657025-bulq%20vs%20dooku.jpg
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-a5435fe810fcce257dbf4380af4dcba8

Here's Dooku fighting Quinlan Vos. Dooku pushes Tholme away in the first panel, disarms Sora in the second panel, blasts Sora away in the fourth panel, strikes Tholme in the eight panel, then disarms him in the ninth. That’s a stomp. 

https://pm1.narvii.com/6893/1aebbb43e6755ddc29b7210241b48ba24ab84d0dr1-290-429v2_hq.jpg
https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/quinlan-vos-spars-with-count-dooku-3.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/rsBTM7I.jpg

These two fights are by the same author and artist as Cade vs Krayt. If they wanted to portray a stomp, then you’d expect it would look like this. Cade joking, mocking, and bragging at Krayt, dodging his telekinetic attacks, and jumping through his Force lightning is... something totally different.

B. DARTH TALON

It’s not like Cade used all his potency on Talon - his Force pushes aren’t even instantly disabling her like they have in all their other skirmishes where he has used the Force, when his mastery of the Force was significantly lesser. 

What's your point here? Talon took Cade's display as proof of newfound mastery of the Force and crawled to warn Krayt about it. 

Did you consider that the point of Talon’s warning may not have been to tell Krayt that this guy can definitively rival him now, but perhaps rather to warn him that this guy’s way more powerful than earlier, and that Krayt should be on his guard because there’s no telling what to expect from him? That makes much more sense, because Cade clearly didn’t turn out to be any sort of threat to Krayt as the fight itself tells us.

So... Talon's role in the final comic was to needlessly warn Krayt about something that he could easily handle anyway? That's some suspect insight. :\

V. FINAL THOUGHTS

• Krayt tries and fails to defeat Cade via telekinesis; Krayt never ragdolls Cade.
  
• Krayt (apparently) tries and fails to defeat Cade via Force lightning.
  
• Krayt and Cade fight across an extended distance despite Krayt wanting to defeat/kill Cade quickly.
  

Citing Sidious straining holding back Maul and Savage together in a blade-lock, or Sidious needing an opening to thrash around Maul, isn't quite the same as Cade jumping across rubble generated by Krayt's failed telekinetic attacks as he jokes, mocks, and brags about his newfound powers. Can you imagine Maul doing that to Sidious? Note I'm not arguing Cade's relativistic to Krayt here -- I'm arguing Krayt's performance is uncharacteristic of a strong tier 9 combatant like Sidious or KFV. And if you disagree on the grounds you think the fight's too vague to extrapolate anything at all, fair enough -- just refer to Ellimist's arguments concerning other Krayt topics.

I'll have more on this soon, but I wanted to put this out before everything closed.

responding to arguments of nuance with crude dismissals and trivialized caricatures

Most of your "arguments of nuance" (  ) concerned taking an event with a broad range of interpretation (e.g. 25 to 75 impressive points), choosing the most favorable possible interpretation every time (e.g. 75 impressiveness points) or just outright blowing right past that value and creating your own (e.g. 100 impressive points), then acting surprised when others argued a more grounded interpretation (e.g. 50 impressiveness points).

Credit to Az, Elm, ILS and Ant. Can't remember the last time I enjoyed a debate this much.